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  1. #81
    Bloodsail Admiral Rhywolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Hail slayer of Zhaitan mightiest of Elder dragons please fix the fences around this compound for me, while also struggling to kill a handful of polar bears and serving my patrons! Works for every game and really isnt a legit point at all..
    It wasn't my intention to let GW2s DEs/Hearts shine over WoWs quest. But in my opinion it's wrong to say that the Warcraft quests are tied much more to the lore than in GW2. It's mostly the same: Developers need a quest hub in a zone that migh or might not have lore at all. Lore can be retconned around this hub anytime.


    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    It exists in wow, there are plenty of quests now that have shared kills, unfortunately they havent bitten the bullet and gone all out. The economy fluctuates all the time, they can tweak the spawn numbers a bit so nodes spawns happen less frequently, I dont think it would be a difficult thing to do.
    Now that you remind me of it... yes, I played that Hyial Dailies where you fough along with a handful of Druides and sometimes some famous NPC. Yep, there were shared kills, not sure about Loot. Didn't know that they used it more often now. Seems like a shy introduction to see how it works.
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  2. #82
    Thats what GW2 failed on in my personal opinion! The no holy trinity! The game was fun and all but it wont last for long since there is nothing that makes you want keep playing once you get to max lvl! Cosmetics are rather useless, why look like a god when you cant be a god?
    Why farm for a item that makes the same thing as the items you wear? Makes no sence to me :/
    There is no character progression, achivment do not count since they are not really character! When i play a RPG i want to feel that every minute i spend playing matters not just for killing stuff for no reason, and there is where World of Warcraft gets it right, you actuly progress your character since the gear and skill makes you good in-game!

    The whole gear situation in GW2 seemed a bit clunky to be honest.

    The best part of GW2 was the combat it was just perfect, idid like some of the random events but after lvl 40 the events where just the same escort this to this point defend this for this amount of time destro these equipments...
    Jump puzzels where alot of fun

    Maybe im old school but i like gear that matters not just for the cosmetic part!

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyberlol View Post
    Thats what GW2 failed on in my personal opinion! The no holy trinity! The game was fun and all but it wont last for long since there is nothing that makes you want keep playing once you get to max lvl! Cosmetics are rather useless, why look like a god when you cant be a god?
    Why farm for a item that makes the same thing as the items you wear? Makes no sence to me :/
    There is no character progression, achivment do not count since they are not really character! When i play a RPG i want to feel that every minute i spend playing matters not just for killing stuff for no reason, and there is where World of Warcraft gets it right, you actuly progress your character since the gear and skill makes you good in-game!

    The whole gear situation in GW2 seemed a bit clunky to be honest.

    The best part of GW2 was the combat it was just perfect, idid like some of the random events but after lvl 40 the events where just the same escort this to this point defend this for this amount of time destro these equipments...
    Jump puzzels where alot of fun

    Maybe im old school but i like gear that matters not just for the cosmetic part!
    Haven't you head? People play GW2 purely for 'fun'.

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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyberlol View Post
    Thats what GW2 failed on in my personal opinion! The no holy trinity! The game was fun and all but it wont last for long since there is nothing that makes you want keep playing once you get to max lvl! Cosmetics are rather useless, why look like a god when you cant be a god?
    Why farm for a item that makes the same thing as the items you wear? Makes no sence to me :/
    Guild Wars 1 had no holy trinity and was mostly cosmetic progression.

    Worked for 4 games over 6 years and funded the sequel, Guild Wars 2. All 5 of which use the exact same B2P business model too.

    You are aware Arena.net didn't just put a 2 at the end of the title for giggles, yea?
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-02-16 at 03:43 PM.

  5. #85
    Bloodsail Admiral Rhywolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Guild Wars 1 had no holy trinity and was mostly cosmetic progression.
    It had no holy trinity? This is new to me. At least it didn't work the same way as it is in GW2.
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  6. #86
    I think most of the issues with combo fields people are noticing are due to the fact that their design isn't really focused. The finishers range in strength from blast finishers which are generally pretty powerful (aoe stealth, aoe might, aoe healing etc.) to 20% projectile finishers which rarely trigger and are weak even when they do. The system as a whole would probably be more interesting if they moved the combo effects closer to what you get from blast and some leap finishers. That pretty much requires removing 20% projectile finishers, but that's really not a big loss.

    Dropping a smoke field and heartseekering out of it to get stealthed is interesting gameplay. Dropping a fire field and spamming arrow autoattacks through it to maybe get 1 second of burning is boring.

    Executing a perfect combo set for 12+ stacks of aoe might as a scepter/dagger ele is interesting gameplay. Whirling in a light field and maybe removing a condition or two from your group is boring and unreliable.
    Last edited by Swishz; 2013-02-16 at 05:34 PM.

  7. #87
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Most positive: first game built to really promote general friendliness and casual cooperation.

    Most negative: trinity and combat as a whole is underwhelming and clunky.


    Anet also tried to innovate endgame, but quickly added in fractals, ascended gear and dailies. Their biggest fail obviously, but since they reverted the innovation it doesn't count.

  8. #88
    Dynamic Events: I wish there were more of them. :P I'm also apparently one of the few who feel this way, but I wish many of them were on a shorter timer. A lot of heart quests are actually a real pain to do without the corresponding DE so if you happen to be in the area during the interim it can be annoying.

    -No holy trinity: First and foremost, I hate how aggro works in the game, so I have to say I often feel the loss of having dedicated tanks. Likewise, I kind of miss being able to hang out in the background and be a dedicated healer. Personally, it's because other games make tanking and healing such a pain in the ass that the "no trinity" system sounded appealing in the first place. I haven't tried dungeons yet, but I imagine the not having to wait 30+ minutes to find a tank and/or healer is nice.

    -Dodge system: Eh. Tera did it better, IMO.

    -Downleveling: I love it. I don't understand why many people don't because without scaling there's not much reason to ever go back to lower level zones. It also makes playing with others so much easier since I don't have to worry about keeping a dedicated character with friends who play less than I do.

    -Skills defined by Weapons: Honestly, I'm not sure I like it. It feels too limiting and you're not always able to augment abilities through traits. I'm also not keen on how slot skills are set up either.

    -Combo Fields: I didn't have an opinion (other than perhaps "pointless") until they added that combo daily and then it quickly turned to "dislike". Combo attacks could have been fun, but I haven't seen that outside of console RPGs.

    -Downed State: I don't like the disparity between classes. Some classes it is significantly worse to be downed than others. I suppose it is better than outright dying, but could have been executed better.

    -Skill and Build system: Interesting, but ultimately lacks too much in customization. There's too many occurrences of needing to pick a major trait and absolutely nothing is worthwhile or the converse of too many good selections packed into too limited an option. I've never been a fan of 'useless' talents in games.

    -Cosmetic progression: Honestly, I don't know what this means. First of all, because nearly everything can be bought. I'm not sure how much "progression" is involved in not having to do anything other than have a lot of gold. Secondly, because aside from legendary weapons (which apparently are considered cosmetic/luxury) I haven't noticed any cosmetic progression. Most people seem to be focused on Ascended items and not for cosmetic purposes.
    Last edited by Lane; 2013-02-16 at 07:35 PM.

  9. #89
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    -Dynamic Events

    I think dynamic events have been a really great feature. I hope they keep adding more with bigger world changes. They made the temples in Orr have a bit more change if you win the event, hopefully they make them even bigger than that.

    -Hearts

    Tied on but separate, I think this is a pretty good evolution of the quest grind system that has become standard. You just go do stuff. If you don't feel like killing, don't. If you want to go water grass or feed cows, you can! I think this is a great mechanic, and I hope they keep thinking of ways to add even more variety instead of gather and kill goals.

    -No holy trinity

    Yes and no to me. The "Holy trinity" has always felt a bit detached from real combat, but mainly because of tanks. I understand healers, and i wish there could be dedicated healers because that makes sense. I also wish players could block mobs a bit so you could have the guys wearing armor down front, but it doesn't make any sense for the mobs to be glued to them. They should work a bit more for mobs to have aggro zones, where dumb mobs lash out more at enemies next to them, really dumb mobs, the enemies in front of them, and smarter mobs will be more tactical. Overall though, I'm glad to see someone moving a way from the holy trinity.

    Honestly it feels more like real combat to me. Real combat is chaotic.

    -Dodge system

    Its not bad. I do like games that require less twitch and more tactical positioning though. But it's not bad.

    -Downleveling

    Sort of a compromise. They should have just done without levels and had the same effect. Go to zones, complete zones, gain skill points and tactic points. Maybe even require a person have a certain number of skill points to go to certain zones to gate a bit if they feel it's absolutely necessary, but don't make it very high.

    -Skills defined by Weapons

    I really like this idea but i wish they went a little further with it and made it not so skills are defined by class and then change with different weapons, but that the 1st 4 bars were defined purely by weapon. I.e. a warrior with a sword gets the first 4 the same as a thief with a sword. What defines class then is the rest of your skills and make those ones more active and used often, not just signets and added buffs. THEN what you can do is make unique weapons have unique skills! The flaming sword you find has a flaming attack skill, the vampire staff you find has a drain life skill, the holy rod has a holy smite skill, etc etc. You could make weapons that are really unique and interesting then, not just stat sticks with pretty skins.

    -Combo Fields

    Not terrible, but not a primary thing right now. I understand them wanting combos for group play and I also think it's hard to make a better way in such an active combat game. FFXI had a great combo system and it was lots of fun but it would be pretty much impossible to implement in this sort of game.

    -Downed State

    Really not my favorite thing. I'd rather players be a bit more durable, have dedicated healers, and down is down.

    -Multi-Guild system

    I think they should change it a bit, so you can get chat priveliges on multiple guilds, but you can only belong to one guild and there's a cooldown on changing guilds. Maybe steal from WoW and have some sort of guild loyalty where when you just join you get a lower percent of the guild bonuses then if you're in it for a few days. I really hope they start focusing on guilds for content. It is after all, GUILD wars. Need guild housing!

    -GW2s take on RvR

    Its alright. Its an interesting idea but I find it get boring pretty quickly. I don't know what I'd do in order to make it better though. Maybe you could host as a mob on other worlds and actually pvp in the world. :P

    -Skill and Build system

    I like the skill and build system, I think they work pretty well. I would change the skills to be a bit more primary to the class as I said above.

    -sPvP "Lobby"

    Its a good idea. sPvP has a lot of potential but its definitely not there yet.

    -Cosmetic progression

    I like this setup a lot but I think weapons and armor need less stats on them. change weapons how I described to make them interesting instead. Make armor just armor that defends you, with some rare stuff maybe having a very small bonus but nothing game changing. Down with stat sticks!


    WE HATES THEM YES WE DO! ICKY ANNOYING JUMPING PUZZLESES. Seriously not my thing, but I know some people do enjoy them so hooray I guess. I just hope they don't put TOO much time in to them. :P Oh also, can we PLEASE not have vistas count towards world completion. Don't take them out, just make them their own achievement. because if I wanted to platform, I'd go play Mario Bros.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 10:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyberlol View Post
    There is no character progression, achivment do not count since they are not really character! When i play a RPG i want to feel that every minute i spend playing matters not just for killing stuff for no reason, and there is where World of Warcraft gets it right, you actuly progress your character since the gear and skill makes you good in-game!
    Its an illusion. I quit for a year, and if I come back, all I have to do is run some weeklies and I'm right up with you. YOUR WORLD IS LIES!!!

    This is the "hamster wheel" progression model. You might get ahead by trying hard, but you're just pushing up the front slope of the wheel a bit. And if you slack off, the back of the wheel just pushes you forward anyways. And, if you just step off the wheel, you can step back on later and a little running will have you up with everybody else.

    But seriously, the real progression in WoW is achievements. GW2 has those also, but they need to define them a bit better and make them a bit more epic.
    Last edited by Rukh; 2013-02-16 at 10:24 PM.
    Still bitter.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhywolver View Post
    It had no holy trinity? This is new to me. At least it didn't work the same way as it is in GW2.
    There was no way to keep the aggro.

    The closest thing to a tank (the GW1 warrior, like GW2 warrior, is a heavily armoured damage dealer which actually fits better the tank descriptor than the punch bags tanks most MMOs use) was an invincible character (Obby flesh and later Shadow Form) that was able to aggro a big ball of enemies without dying, allowing a powerful AoE spike to instantly kill the mob. The kill had instant though.

    Outside of those degenerate builds that I'm surely were kept in to preserve PuGs, there was no tank which controlled aggro other than physically body blocking, so a party would survive by party wide or individual defensive buffs and CC, with healing playing a secondary roll to protection.

    Despite vastly preferring GW2 action combat, a well played frontline-midline-backline was a thing of beauty, especially when two of them collided with the frontlines going after each other backline.
    Last edited by Improvavel; 2013-02-16 at 11:05 PM.

  11. #91
    It had no holy trinity? This is new to me. At least it didn't work the same way as it is in GW2.
    "Tanking" in Guild Wars 1 was 99% body blocking and 1% control skills. Any class could do it and it was not a game mechanic expressly. "Tanking" and healing could be ignored in most cases as well.

    Holy Trinity class roles is not some loosey goosey term that applies every time a Warlock "tanked" a mob for a couple of minutes. Class trinities refer to 3 necessary, hard defined class roles by design.

  12. #92
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    1 Dynamic Events
    2 No holy trinity
    3 Dodge system
    4 Downleveling
    5 Skills defined by Weapons
    6 Combo Fields
    7 Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity")
    8 Skill and Build system
    1. Fun, but not really different from quests.
    2. Enforces chaotic fights, not my cup of tea. Prefer structured, tactical fights like in WoW.
    3. Super fun, want in WoW!
    4. Retarded because forced. Awesome to help lowlevel friends. With a toggle it would be perfect.
    5. Not my cup of tea. Rather select combat choice with class and Weapons for visuals.
    6. Cool in theory, badly executed though.
    7. Uselees pile of steaming garbage. Prefer design that does not encompass dieing. Rezzing with every class is fun though.
    8. Boring. Talents are too passive and don't change stuff enough. Prefer talents being signature moves.

    My own:
    No tagging, personal resource nodes:
    These two I really miss in WoW. I liked the fact that you essentially are always happy whenever you see another player, while in WoW you roll with your eyes because all they do is hinder you.

    PvP-Max gear:
    I don't PvP, but I imagine this to be quite cool for competitive folks. Only skill/comp matters and not time invested into grind.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-02-16 at 11:21 PM.

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  13. #93
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    PvP-Max gear:
    I don't PvP, but I imagine this to be quite cool for competitive folks. Only skill/comp matters and not time invested into grind.
    Technically already done on arena tournament servers so not innovative but good implementation of existing ideas, which is pretty much what all GW2 'innovations' are.

  14. #94
    -Dynamic Events
    Just another method of forcing people to do repetitive, boring aoe spamming quests. Nothing new here. Nothing that is a new-and-a-personal-gain-of-GW2 also.
    Verdict: Just another overhyped crap.

    -No holy trinity
    ...basically meaning EVERYTHING is pretty just the same for every class. No role = no difference. Also, all the content quickly becomes boring as hell zergfest.
    Verdict: Just another overhyped crap.

    -Dodge system
    Quite fits entire boring zergfest-style gameplay that GW2 offers to its players. By the way, active dodge system is again NOT a gw2 personal unique gain, the system was used in lots of western MMO games long before GW2 was even created.
    Verdict: well, since it is a minor and generally no-matter tech part of game, it works nice.

    -Downleveling
    Stupidest thing. Ever. If I play a game that offers a progression system to my character, why the hell would I want downlevel for God's sake? Just so I can feel myself as gimpy piece of crap as my party member is? What the hell?
    Verdict: I have NO words beyond explicit content to say in this matter, so in short: crap.

    -Skills defined by Weapons
    In general: don't like, except underwater transformation, which is kinda cool and really new thing.

    -Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity")
    In general: don't like. In fact, I don't like this game at all. I don't like all this absurd mainstream game developing, turning our beloved MMORPGs into stupid faceless cloned action-based no-class MMOs. I never needed arcade QTE-style minigame experience during my playtime, who the hell is that idiot that invented that crap? Fucking console shit.
    Verdict: crap.

    -Multi-Guild system
    In short: crap. Looks to me that Anet devs never actually played any MMORPG, it looks very crystal on this matter that they don't even understand what is the role of a guild in a MMORPG and all that things.
    Verdict: yet another overhyped crap, lol.

    -GW2s take on RvR
    Kinda don't understood the question. But if you mean server vs server pvp, so there is really nothing new and innovative brought by gw2 in this field. Dudes killing other dudes. Very interesting when you play in a own party with voice communications and stuff. Suxx beyond all limits when you are playing against those dudes who are having lots of fun playing with their own group with voice etc etc blah blah. Again: no normal open pvp is fucking hilarious for a game that pretends to be a pvp killa of all times lol.

    -Skill and Build system
    Too small number of abilities. I don't get enough from a gw2 character. Playing GW2 reminds me of that good old days when I had to play with only my left hand, coz all my right hand was in bandages. When I play GW2, I constantly feel my character as some kind of limited-possibility human. Boring, extremely easy as hell, even an zoo monkey will play successfully.
    Verdict: can't write anything beyond that subjectie "feeling", but again I feel this is crap, oh lord.

    -sPvP "Lobby"
    Nice enough, I think. Nothing to add.

    -Cosmetic progression
    Crappest of all crap. Period.

    Want to add:
    Extremely boring gameplay. Oh god. Play Tera and you'll perfectly understand what I mean by this. Extremely boring.
    Extremely boring endgame pve. Endless, boring zergfests plus extremely boring gameplay... well, you've got it, yeah.
    Kinda not bad pvp, although lack of free open world pvp sucks.
    Aaaaaaand: very good explorations and jumping puzzles, this are only things I really love in this crappy game

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Technically already done on arena tournament servers so not innovative but good implementation of existing ideas, which is pretty much what all GW2 'innovations' are.
    arena tournament servers?

    It was technically done in GW1 as you could make pvp only characters from the start.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyberlol View Post
    Thats what GW2 failed on in my personal opinion! The no holy trinity! The game was fun and all but it wont last for long since there is nothing that makes you want keep playing once you get to max lvl! Cosmetics are rather useless, why look like a god when you cant be a god?
    Why farm for a item that makes the same thing as the items you wear? Makes no sence to me :/
    There is no character progression, achivment do not count since they are not really character! When i play a RPG i want to feel that every minute i spend playing matters not just for killing stuff for no reason, and there is where World of Warcraft gets it right, you actuly progress your character since the gear and skill makes you good in-game!


    The whole gear situation in GW2 seemed a bit clunky to be honest.

    The best part of GW2 was the combat it was just perfect, idid like some of the random events but after lvl 40 the events where just the same escort this to this point defend this for this amount of time destro these equipments...
    Jump puzzels where alot of fun

    Maybe im old school but i like gear that matters not just for the cosmetic part!
    It's true for some but it's the exact thing that gives it staying power for others that you can play very casually or even stop for a few months if you don't have a schedule that allows it and not be hoplessly left behind in progression.
    When in doubt, mumble...

  17. #97
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Several of your points are fine and totally valid, but many of them are false. A large portion of your list is not innovative or even original. A couple examples follow:

    Dynamic events: This was the original and main selling point of Rift, while the system wasn't the best and got old the same way that quests get old, it was almost identical the one in guild wars, just usually in smaller areas. The progression of objectives and somewhat 'random' timing of tears appearing was similar to the way events work in GW2.

    No holy trinity / Dodge system / downed state - All of these are present in MANY eastern sub-mainstream MMOs. They are staples of more action oriented style MMORPGS, none of these are new, most of them are actually quite old.

    Downleveling might be slightly different in GW2, but a similar system was in place for games as old as City of Heroes with their sidekicking and mentoring system.

    Skills and builds - These are SOMEWHAT different, I won't claim they are identical to any other system, however they aren't that innovative. Let's look at the old WoW system compared to this system.

    In the old WoW system you picked a main tree (with a few small exceptions that were never intended) and stuck with it, putting only left over points (and some in 1st and 2nd tier talents) in other trees. You might put 5 ranks into a t1 talent to get to a t2 talent that gave you an ability instead of a flat % increase.

    In the GW2 system, you put points into a trait to get access to better traits which affect your skills in unique ways. The more trait points you spend in one trait, the better the abilities you unlock further in that trait tree.

    The key difference here is that in WoW, you generally had 2-3 choices at each tier, whereas in GW2 you have 0 choices until you get to a bigger trait unlock, at which time you had as many as 12 to choose from. Both systems still work the same way, just with their options spread out differently.

    I'm not an opponent of GW2, it is a quality game and fills a desired niche. I'm glad so many people enjoy it, I myself (obviously) own a copy and played it quite a bit (I'm actually considering picking it up again soon); but to say it was an innovative game is being a bit generous.

    As I said, some of your points have merit, the RvR system, lobbies, and cosmetic options are innovative even in cases where they aren't original.

    To each his own.
    Last edited by Rhaide; 2013-02-17 at 12:52 AM.
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  18. #98
    I quit months ago, so no idea if it has changed, but no holy trinity was a deal breaker for me, dungeons were just stupid and not at all fun. Mobs running around all over the place, attacking anyone and everything, no healer, no tank...just one giant clusterfuck. I honestly would have loved to remain with the game, but not having a group structure just made me leave.

  19. #99
    GW2 is a great game, I was pretty addicted to it until I went on holiday for 3 weeks - when I came back I just couldn't find a reason to play. 700 hours or so dropped in this game, 7 level 80s mostly exotic'ed, majority of dungeon paths complete, rank 25 in sPvP.

    Now one thing I feel GW2 could have done a lot better is the heart questing system. It's supposed to be the next step up from traditional questing but I feel it was a step back.
    It's boring and it does not make you feel involved with the lore/story of the world. Yes, you can say "the lore is all around you!" but other games manage to incorporate lore and stories without you having to take time out to find it. The heart quests just feel completely disconnected from this. Even worse, the heart questing system feels more "kill 10 boars", "collect 10 badges" or "shoot this cannon 10 times" than standard questing.

    The lack of trinity + dodging can work quite well in PvE and make the combat feel very actiony - but at the same time it feels your character lacks a hard role that makes you feel special within your group or that you can't be replaced.

    I think these are some of the criticisms that made friends lose interest in the game quite quickly.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by nightshark View Post
    GW2 is a great game, I was pretty addicted to it until I went on holiday for 3 weeks - when I came back I just couldn't find a reason to play. 700 hours or so dropped in this game, 7 level 80s mostly exotic'ed, majority of dungeon paths complete, rank 25 in sPvP.

    Now one thing I feel GW2 could have done a lot better is the heart questing system. It's supposed to be the next step up from traditional questing but I feel it was a step back.
    It's boring and it does not make you feel involved with the lore/story of the world. Yes, you can say "the lore is all around you!" but other games manage to incorporate lore and stories without you having to take time out to find it. The heart quests just feel completely disconnected from this. Even worse, the heart questing system feels more "kill 10 boars", "collect 10 badges" or "shoot this cannon 10 times" than standard questing.

    The lack of trinity + dodging can work quite well in PvE and make the combat feel very actiony - but at the same time it feels your character lacks a hard role that makes you feel special within your group or that you can't be replaced.

    I think these are some of the criticisms that made friends lose interest in the game quite quickly.
    But then, only healers and tanks really felt 'special' as dps is very very very easily replaced in holy trinity setups for the most part.

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