OH - Sub

[Assaris]

For those who will say something like "oh gosh, thats been answer all the time at the forum..." guys, I did look for that, but didnt find so please, dont come here been mean, if you are not going to help, just dont try to mess my thread up, for everyone who came here to troll, read it and didnt... thanks! So lets to my question...

Main hand is a dagger, no doubt and its cool but...

Some guides said that slow weapons are good, others that fast weapons are better, but didnt said why is that... Can someone with a opnion about it explain to me with a good explanation? Please! Resuming...

For OH... Slow or fast weapon and why? Thanks!





My english is bad and I should feel bad!

[Squirl]

Fast OHs are better because you get more poison procs. There's no reason to run a slow OH.

[Chancie]

My off hand is an upgrade Flex Seismic bore. The only other dagger I have is a 504 spiritsever. If I had a dagger from flex/normal, I'd have run with that because of the more frequent poison procs.

[Deleted]

Statweights according to shadowcraft for my rogue currently stands as:
Mainhand Dps 5.087
Offhand Dps 0.819

Poison procs arent a huge part of the DPS, but it´s there after Ambush but ahead of rupture. (EDIT, acctually DP and DP instant proces combined are quite significant, had a temporary brain lapse)
So in short the OH is more of a poison applicating stat stick then a actual weapon.

However if you get a significantly stronger slow OH, at some point the added autoattack damage (nr1 damage source for, closely followed by BS), and added stats, will outweigh the lost poison applications.
You can always use Shadowcraft to import your gear from armory and try replacing your OH to see how it plays out.

[Carp The Fish]

I use a slow off-hand just because I have a Combat offspec. If you plan to play Combat, then a slow off-hand is not a bad idea for Subtlety.
It is not a BIG DPS loss.

In my opinion, your off-hand should only be a deciding factor in your choice if you're NEVER going to play Combat and if you REALLY want to max out your Subtlety spec, which shouldn't be the case since Subtlety is a little over-tuned and plays just fine with a Combat reforge.

If you have a Combat spec though (and why wouldn't you?), use a slow off-hand and have fun with transmog options.

[Squirl]

I use a slow off-hand just because I have a Combat offspec. If you plan to play Combat, then a slow off-hand is not a bad idea for Subtlety.
It is not a BIG DPS loss.

In my opinion, your off-hand should only be a deciding factor in your choice if you're NEVER going to play Combat and if you REALLY want to max out your Subtlety spec, which shouldn't be the case since Subtlety is a little over-tuned and plays just fine with a Combat reforge.

If you have a Combat spec though (and why wouldn't you?), use a slow off-hand and have fun with transmog options.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You can just hold onto 2 daggers for mut/subt and 1-2 2.6 weps for combat. This is assuming you have a choice between equal ilvl weapons.

If you have 1 good dagger for your MH, 1 good 2.6 (for combat), and another crappy dagger lying around, then the 2.6 is likely the best OH choice. ShC will help you determine the best way to go in a situation like this.

If you're using a 2.6 OH just because you like the way it looks or you just don't want to gem/enchant/reforge another dagger, that seems kind of silly to me.

[Carp The Fish]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You can just hold onto 2 daggers for mut/subt and 1-2 2.6 weps for combat. This is assuming you have a choice between equal ilvl weapons.

If you have 1 good dagger for your MH, 1 good 2.6 (for combat), and another crappy dagger lying around, then the 2.6 is likely the best OH choice. ShC will help you determine the best way to go in a situation like this.

If you're using a 2.6 OH just because you like the way it looks or you just don't want to gem/enchant/reforge another dagger, that seems kind of silly to me.

Let me add an addendum to my post then.

I'll use my rogue as an example:
Note: This example is going to be flawed, since I'm min-maxing for a Agi-gem Combat spec, which is already ~1% less than Haste-gem Combat.

My current playstyle has me playing Agi-gem Combat and Subtlety. With my Subtlety specs, I play with 4k Crit, then Haste>Mastery>Crit.

Right now I have 3 choices for weapons: my heroic Norushen's Shortblade, a normal Softfoot's Last Resort, and a normal Nazgrim's Gutripper.
Min-maxing in Shadowcraft to the way I like my Subtlety spec, in my current gear, the 2.6 offhand spec comes out about 3k less than the 1.8 offhand spec.

Math time!:
1 - (offhand 2.6 value / offhand 1.8 value)
1 - (336,229 / 339,147.9) = 0.0086

In other words, for the way I play, the 2.6 off-hand is within (including a margin of error if I did my calculations wrong) 2% of the 1.8 off-hand I have available. I'm comfortable with that trade-off.

[Sesshou]

Except iirc that dagger is mastery / haste compared to your crit / hit fist weapon, so it isn't just a matter of the speeds. If you do have an equal ilvl offhand, especially one with more optimal secondary stats, why wouldn't you use it? You say you're fine with a 2% trade off. Are you fine with running an unenchanted weapon in your offhand? That shows a 1.8% decrease for me so it is pretty much equivalent.

I agree that 2% is very minimal if you are just making do with what you have. 2% is a pretty huge deal if you are actually trying to min/max though.

[Deleted]

On a slightly related topic, isnt 1.8 OH the ideal way to go for combat aswell? or is that no longer the case?

[Squirl]

On a slightly related topic, isnt 1.8 OH the ideal way to go for combat aswell? or is that no longer the case?

It's really close (and probably changes depending on gear, so use ShC). 2x 2.6 depends on increased KSp damage, so if you can't use it on CD then it will fall behind. 1.8 OH is still for increased poison procs.

Comparing my current dagger OH to a comparable 2.6, I would gain ~2k DPS (>1% gain). As a human, a mace or sword would likely come out ahead in both hands as long as the expertise can be utilized. The paragons axe is the only heroic 2.6 I've picked up though.

[Carp The Fish]

Except iirc that dagger is mastery / haste compared to your crit / hit fist weapon, so it isn't just a matter of the speeds. If you do have an equal ilvl offhand, especially one with more optimal secondary stats, why wouldn't you use it? You say you're fine with a 2% trade off. Are you fine with running an unenchanted weapon in your offhand? That shows a 1.8% decrease for me so it is pretty much equivalent.

I agree that 2% is very minimal if you are just making do with what you have. 2% is a pretty huge deal if you are actually trying to min/max though.

Minor nitpick: Nazgrim's dagger is Expertise/Crit. If I was talking about Thok's dagger, you'd be completely right.
Unenchanted weapons are no-go's, in any scenario. My estimates assumed all 3 weapons have Dancing Steel on them, correct gemming, etc.

[Varabently]

I think it frankly doesn't seem to matter much. I just use the highest ilevel one I have (which is awful ATM) and leave it at that. You may also consider the stats on the item. If one has hit/expertise you don't need then maybe use one with haste/crit/mastery instead.

Hell, I will go as far as to say use whichever one you have the best transmog for. I use a fist OH because there are so many cool fists. As has been mentioned, it's within the margin of error difference, so use what you like. AFAIK poisons are normalized for weapon speed, so I'm not sure why those even come into play.

[Squirl]

AFAIK poisons are normalized for weapon speed, so I'm not sure why those even come into play.

They aren't. It's a flat proc chance.

[Sesshou]

Minor nitpick: Nazgrim's dagger is Expertise/Crit. If I was talking about Thok's dagger, you'd be completely right.
Unenchanted weapons are no-go's, in any scenario. My estimates assumed all 3 weapons have Dancing Steel on them, correct gemming, etc.

Ah, well my mistake on the secondary stats... I'll care about daggers after those that really want them get all 4 of theirs since as in ToT, despite needing more total, its a lot easier for me to get a slow weapon since we see more.

I wasn't necessarily saying you were comparing unenchanted / ungemmed weapons to enchanted / gemmed weapons. I was saying that it seems kind of dumb to me that you care enough about 2% damage to enchant your weapons but not to equip the more optimal weapon in your bags. If you truly feel that 2% is small enough that you can't be asked to do anything to get it, why waste the effort / expenses to enchant your weapons?