Is the World of Warcraft community bad? And should we feel bad?

[ringpriest]

I just got finished reading this article entitled, The Warcraft Community is Bad and We Should Feel Bad and it made me think about the times that I'd done something similar: that is, kicking someone out of group because they were poorly geared or slow to respond or telling PUG raid leaders not to accept certain people because they were "bad" or "poorly geared trash."

In retrospect, should I feel bad for doing that? Is it our responsibility as gamers to help out our fellow gamer just looking to escape the doldrums of real life? After all, we were all noobs once.

In my opinion, it depends. I wouldn't kick someone who was 'reasonably' undergeared and trying, unless they refused to listen or try to correct what mistakes they might be making. Someone who randomly /afks? Oh hell yes. Nothing more annoying, especially on a long dungeon or raid. On a raid that was current content, yes, I'd vet people to make sure they met at least basic gearing standards. (Are they gemmed, enchanted, and have class appropriate gear at a good enough level to make them something more than deadweight?) Otoh, when the warrior 'tank' is wearing cloth with multiple empty slots and refuses to equip anything else, hell yes, I'll boot them in a second.

[Jokerfiend]

If end game for certain players was UBRS and Kara and now end game is badge gear and LFR, that is a quality of life upgrade from what those players had previously. Perhaps more people are choosing solo activities versus guild oriented activities, but the bottom line is that those activities are still there--people still pvp and raid with their guild, and engage in guild activities together. Competitive play still requires an organized group. It's not an insignificant amount of players who are engaging in said guild activities, either--I know more players who engage in a guild than prefer to go it alone.

Limiting player options in regarding to gearing doesn't fix community problems--players build community, not Blizzard. Removing LFD/LFR would just hurt the players who are on low pop servers and can't commit to a raid schedule (and I don't even like LFD/LFR).

Dailies need to do a better job at encouraging group play if they are going to be such a prominent feature this expansion, that is the one thing I think needs to change.

This and players that think like you are, frankly, deluded. I'll explain.

How can it be a quality of life upgrade to take guild raiding out of gearing? You said certain players, how about the MAJORITY of players. The majority of players, had a hard time dealing with Heroics, in TBC. The majority of players, never seen Ragnaros in Vanilla. The majority of players never did any raiding besides Karazhan. Maybe Gruul's, and the first 2 bosses in SSC and TK. That's it. That was the majority of players.

What is progression, exactly? Normals? Heroics? Because I see this getting thrown around a lot, without any substance or variable. While I get "progression" still happens, it's not the same. There weren't "levels" of raids or dungeons, in Vanilla and TBC. There was only one path and progression route. Leveling, that on average, took about 12-15 days played, BRD, DM(W)(N)(E), Scholo, Stratholme(Live and UD), LBRS to UBRS, ZG/MC/ONY, BWL/AQ20/AQ40, then Nax40.

Progression routes made it so every guild had a goal to overcome, needed anyone with like-minds to go with them. While still true today, to some extent, is negated, by newly released Heroics and Badge gear. These gateways to current raiding, neglect the previous content.

While I get, I hated gearing up new players argument. That is what made guilds so important. Guilds that could facebang content to gear up players, while annoying, forced the content to be relevant and necessary. Constantly have the wheels greased and turning. Making niche market of in-between guilds, or stepping stone guilds and transitioning players. Then in all of that, since professions quite frankly were parasitic vampires. It made it necessary to have 2-3 people funneled mats to level their professions. Again, this made guilds PARAMOUNT to success. This is something newer players just don't understand, like young people and analog phones.

I know a lot of players, think WHAT A MESS! That was so messy, you can't argue the game is more stream-lined and easier to navigate! More user friendly! I agree, but at what cost.

You see a lot of players saying it right here. The game isn't the same or something is missing agendas. What is missing, is relevant older content and the in-betweeners. These links formed a community that isn't present in today's WoW. Coupled with name changes, server transfers, LFR/LFD, and the destruction of large raiding groups. Now force pockets of players together, that don't have to play with each other at all. The limited interaction you have with your guild or your faction is detailed into normal/heroic raids, challenge modes, and stealing your farm.

Outside of that, WTF do you even need a guild for? You NEEEDEDEDED a guild prior to mid-wrath. Plain and simple. Now all you need is the time to play, and a certain level of skill, determinable by spreadsheets and meters, depending on what you are doing and why.

Sure you can DO ALL of what you said, he can still DO. Back then HE NEEDEDEDED TO do it. That is what makes all the difference and is what the game is now missing. The need to have a community.

[marthsk]

OP, I'll be blunt: if you end up feeling bad about the happenings of an online game, maybe it's time to find a new hobby... or a new game.

Games are for entertainment, and I pity those who make it such a big deal to a point where it affects how they live.

[Aquamonkey]

It's probably more to do with the volume of players we interact with now and negativity bias.

[Veyne]

it's blizzard's fault that the community is the way it is.

False. It's everyone's personal choice to act kindly and civilized towards one another.

Personal accountability.

[Bathory]

It's a shame, but i wouldn't say we should feel BAD about it, unless you realize you're part of the problem and wanna do something about it. Since beta (vanilla WoW) I've always helped people, and I still do. So if anything I feel happy that, despite the world degrading, that I haven't let it bring me down.

[marthsk]

Personal accountability.

That would be akin to quantum physics to people here in terms of perceived complexity. I wouldn't try explaining this if I was you unless I'd want a humongous headache.

[Mormolyce]

This quote rings out truest. And while the community is certainly to blame for this mentality, Blizzard only added kindling to this fire by catering to it in every possible way.

How do you stop gamers from min/maxing? They do it to everything they play. Hell, the term "min/maxing" is from freaking D&D that's how old the phenomenon is.

And the more challenging a game is, the more they do it. Compare D2, where you didn't really care what skills were optional because you could beat that game on the hardest difficulty with both hands tied behind your back and the mouse stuck up your ass. But you still had plenty of skill guides on the net. And then along comes D3 with its insanely hard Inferno mode (at launch it was anyway) and people absolutely obsess over which runes are exactly the most efficient and then convince themselves they HAVE to play those builds to win (to be fair, early on some skills were broken to the point that they trivialised Inferno so from a certain perspective they were "mandatory"). And let's not even start on how gamers' minds divide all gear in that game into two categories - "BiS" and "garbage".

How can a game developer stop this? Remove all damage from tooltips? Theorycrafters will just reverse engineer it. Make games so easy theorycrafting is unnecessary? Well that'll go down a treat.

I really don't think this is something Blizzard or any developer is responsible for or capable of fixing. It's in our heads. Hell I do it myself - in Fallout 3 I chose that perk that made bodies always explode when they died even though that kind of ruined it for me just because it had a flat 5% damage increase attached to it. I'd much rather have corpses exploding be an occasional thing so it was a bit more special when it did happen and I could enjoy the less gory death animations as well. Also, the game is really easy towards the end and I didn't even need that 5%. But when I saw that perk I just felt like I had to take it... why? Was it Bethesda's fault?

[marthsk]

How do you stop gamers from min/maxing? They do it to everything they play. Hell, the term "min/maxing" is from freaking D&D that's how old the phenomenon is.

And the more challenging a game is, the more they do it. Compare D2, where you didn't really care what skills were optional because you could beat that game on the hardest difficulty with both hands tied behind your back and the mouse stuck up your ass. But you still had plenty of skill guides on the net. And then along comes D3 with its insanely hard Inferno mode (at launch it was anyway) and people absolutely obsess over which runes are exactly the most efficient and then convince themselves they HAVE to play those builds to win (to be fair, early on some skills were broken to the point that they trivialised Inferno so from a certain perspective they were "mandatory"). And let's not even start on how gamers' minds divide all gear in that game into two categories - "BiS" and "garbage".

How can a game developer stop this? Remove all damage from tooltips? Theorycrafters will just reverse engineer it. Make games so easy theorycrafting is unnecessary? Well that'll go down a treat.

I really don't think this is something Blizzard or any developer is responsible for or capable of fixing. It's in our heads. Hell I do it myself - in Fallout 3 I chose that perk that made bodies always explode when they died even though that kind of ruined it for me just because it had a flat 5% damage increase attached to it. I'd much rather have corpses exploding be an occasional thing so it was a bit more special when it did happen and I could enjoy the less gory death animations as well. Also, the game is really easy towards the end and I didn't even need that 5%. But when I saw that perk I just felt like I had to take it... why? Was it Bethesda's fault?

Or, in short, to quote Jon Lajoie: Guns don't kill people, nuh-uh. I kill people with guns.

It's easy to blame a game's design when it really is some individuals' over-zealousness that is at fault. Not much can be done about that until the day this same over-zealousness bites them in the ass.

[ringpriest]

False. It's everyone's personal choice to act kindly and civilized towards one another.

Personal accountability.

Not entirely accurate. What if via ubiquitous cameras and computer magic, every time you said greeted someone you passed on the street, you got a dollar? And every time you were rude to them it cost you a dollar? Your actions would still be your "personal choice", but your behavior might change. Now, what if the situation were exactly flipped - being rude gains you a dollar, and being friendly costs you a dollar? I'd bet most people's behavior would change again. In this analogy, Blizzard are the ones running the cameras, computer and dollar debit-credit system. They're the ones who get to decide what behaviors benefit whom, and how. Sure, every player in wow has choice, but those choices are strongly informed by the choices Blizzard makes regarding game design.

And as for personal accountability, LFD, LFR, and cross-realm everything all help make it less and less relevant.

[The Glitch]

In TBC ppl were like LOL ret then later i was like LOL i Killed KJ hows kara baddies.

Fast foward a few expansions and I'm like "514 Ilvl ret LFG..." "actually no i beat the game my bad. enjoy LFR"

Did the hardships I had to overcome as ret specifically in TBC make me the elitist dick I am today? You are goddamn right it did. If a ret can start mid expansion and climb to clear all content and farm SWP there is no reason anyone can't do the same in WoW today.

Now see I get where you are coming from, I was a Moonkin in TBC, or well OOMKIN, and raided all the way to Sunwell, I earned my spot, because I worked hard to play my toon to the best of my abilities, and was rewarded by being given a perma spot in every raid. And I was treated by some with the whole *OOMKIN* crap that was everywhere back then.

However I shrugged it off, I didn't care what anyone other than my friends and guildmates thought of me, and well being given a raid spot, it was clear they thought I was a good player and deserved to be there with them.

Now I am 30 my gaming rituals have changed alot, I don't have the time to study boss mechanics, or commit to a raid schedule, so the game for me is about the other parts of the game, things I still have fun doing but can do at a more relaxed pace. I still keep up to date with my class, and do the best with what I have access to. Does this make me a bad player? No. It just makes me a player like you, that enjoys different aspects of the game now.

I wouldn't and haven't ever walked around thinking I am superior to anyone else just because I was lucky enough to find a group of people that gave me a chance when the spec I decided to play wasn't at its peak back then, I chose to put the effort in to learn my class and work hard, for myself and my guild, not because of any random dude.

The attitude you show now is no better than the attitude of those that treated you like that back in TBC because you played RET, don't you see that doing what you do just causes the cycle of rudeness to keep on flowing?

You are undermining the good you do (your guide to help people) by the attitude you are showing in your posts/interactions with people. The responsibility is on us as individuals to treat people the way we would expect to be treated, not decide "If you can't beat em, join em".

In my opinion it all starts and ends with each individual.

[Mormolyce]

Ernest Hemingway once wrote "The World of Warcraft is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

[Fancyfeast]

OP, I'll be blunt: if you end up feeling bad about the happenings of an online game, maybe it's time to find a new hobby... or a new game.

Games are for entertainment, and I pity those who make it such a big deal to a point where it affects how they live.

Hey, it's presumptuous, self-inflated ego guy! "Chill brah, it's just a game!" I was wondering when someone like you might show up.

Note, I never implied I was staying up, crying into my pillow at night because of the game; fact of the matter is though, through chumping someone out of running an instance or denying them the right to raid, you're still potentially ruining someone's day. In the grand scheme of things, insignificant -- but since I have a trait called empathy, I can imagine myself as a little kid being dejected on account of being shunned while playing WoW and that feelsbadman.

[Arbs]

I just feel that Wrath & Cata basicially spoon feed everyone and now no one wants to work for anything. Its what kills your drive to play cause no one wants to put in any effort to either better themselves as a player or there gear, They rather be handed everything with minimal to zero effort. It just saddens me that once again no one wants to put in the time for anything unless there dedicated, Its the one major thing that hurt the WoW community & continues to plague it. There are to many people they will whine and demand they deserve everything. Except before Wrath you had to work for shit, you had to put in the time and ya Nostalgia is bad, but the truth is the truth and people take the whole casual way thing to far.

A good example
- Player A works his ass off to better him self as a player & to progress his character even when he limited time as he plays 14 hours a week, only 2 hours each night & can accomplish alot.
- Player B on the other hand played 30 mins - 1 hour each day & expects to get everything Player A gets, but doesn't put in the time for it. He whines like others and things get simplified.

Outcome: Player B & others can get everything with minimal effort, that Player A & others who worked hard for now all of that effort & dedication has gone to waste & doesn't show anymore as its easy to do now.

Basically where I am going is Dailies aren't hard to do, there fairly easy & take maybe 15 - 20 mins tops for each faction. You do 4 Factions takes 1 hour. Now if you dedicated 2 hours each day or night like Player A you could finish have a Hour left of gameplay to do whatever you wanted. LFR/ BGs/ Arenas/ Professions/ Pet Battles.

Dailies are not the problem, its the laziness of the WoW community thats the problem. An it isn't only the WoW community that has this problem its in every MMO (Rift/SWTOR/GW2/TERA/Aion/TSW)

If you don't have the time to dedicated atleast 1 or 2 hours a day than you shouldn't be playing at all, Don't ruin the game for others who wanna put in that extra effort, just to make it easier for you. If there anything negative I can say about the WoW community that it is full of lazy people.

I will continue to play & always put in that extra effort in to make the game more fun & enjoyable for me while also doing my best to progress my characters, But it does sadden me greatly that when I put in all this extra effort it ends up meaning nothing as its eventually made easier cause a group of people whined that it takes to long or to difficult.

Like I said people are just to lazy to put in any kind of effort & make excuses, while calling it horrible game design when there idea of game design is even worse and the reason were in this mess.

[Celista]

Outside of that, WTF do you even need a guild for? You NEEEDEDEDED a guild prior to mid-wrath. Plain and simple. Now all you need is the time to play, and a certain level of skill, determinable by spreadsheets and meters, depending on what you are doing and why.

Sure you can DO ALL of what you said, he can still DO. Back then HE NEEDEDEDED TO do it. That is what makes all the difference and is what the game is now missing. The need to have a community.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not NEEEEDing a guild to do something. The playerbase is changing/aging, not all of them can commit to a guild's raiding/organized pvp schedule--I'm amazed I can now, but only because I have a lot of control over my work schedule. Guilds aren't going anywhere--encourage players to participate in group activities in other ways if you are a more casual guild. Be creative!

Outcome: Player B & others can get everything with minimal effort, that Player A & others who worked hard for now all of that effort & dedication has gone to waste & doesn't show anymore as its easy to do now.

Basically where I am going is Dailies aren't hard to do, there fairly easy & take maybe 15 - 20 mins tops for each faction. You do 4 Factions takes 1 hour. Now if you dedicated 2 hours each day or night like Player A you could finish have a Hour left of gameplay to do whatever you wanted. LFR/ BGs/ Arenas/ Professions/ Pet Battles.

Dailies are not the problem, its the laziness of the WoW community thats the problem. An it isn't only the WoW community that has this problem its in every MMO (Rift/SWTOR/GW2/TERA/Aion/TSW)

If you don't have the time to dedicated atleast 1 or 2 hours a day than you shouldn't be playing at all, Don't ruin the game for others who wanna put in that extra effort, just to make it easier for you. If there anything negative I can say about the WoW community that it is full of lazy people.

Like I said people are just to lazy to put in any kind of effort & make excuses, while calling it horrible game design when there idea of game design is even worse and the reason were in this mess.

Your post was more defense of dailies than it was about community (the actual point of the thread). Dailies did not take 15-20 mins per faction at the beginning of this expansion, and it is not (in my opinion)compelling game design. However this is a discussion that should be best left for another thread...

Ultimately there is a difference between working hard to do something and doing something monotonous and unchallenging over and over again for a mediocre reward. Is the latter really hard work? No, not really, but it can be time intensive.

I do agree with you regarding player effort--some players don't want to put the effort in, or don't think it's fair that they can't yield the same rewards in the game because they do not have the time to put into the game due to real-life commitments. Many of those people probably shouldn't be playing MMOs.

[jonoy8]

it's not bad, there's 10 million people do you think everyone is going to be super nice.

the fact though that there's no group quests and everything is instanced means the community isn't tight knit because there's no reason to group up with strangers for anything except sha.

[Vaelorian]

God again a thread about the community.

And to all those naysayers that Blizzard isn't at fault... Partly true only.

It comes down to this:

- being anonymous (def. not blizzards fault)
- not being accountable (def. blizzards fault by not providing enough ingame features to "control" people)

The tools like LFR/CRZ/LFD provide are taking control away. There was such a thing like server control. You could get "blacklisted". Or at the very least properly ignored by the ignore feature. People were nice to eachother cause they probably would be playing again with the same people. LFD was serverwide. So yes you could end up with the same "bad" players. And before LFD(serverwide) we had to manually make groups. For a lot of people this was a pain. Not for me but I am a minority.

So when control gets taken away and broken down (who knows anyone anymore on their own server?), you get the worst of human nature... You end up with a cesspit.

So yes everyone themselves who act like asses should stop. But Blizzard isn't guilt free either. They provided the tools to make it far worse then it was before. And they made it worse as a byproduct of trying to fix something - the feeling of not having an empty server + shorter queues for LFD/LFR.

[icausewipes]

they offered people options and the people chose to abuse it or not. you say lfr/crz/lfd took away control? i say it gave people an option to raid w/o getting shut out by the ilvl and achieve boss.

[bionics]

they offered people options and the people chose to abuse it or not. you say lfr/crz/lfd took away control? i say it gave people an option to raid w/o getting shut out by the ilvl and achieve boss.

I agree with your statement partially. However, LFR/CRZ/LFD is a double-edged sword; back before x-realm instances, you pretty much knew everyone in your group. People often ran instance grinds together with people they knew from their server to be reliable, non-ninjas, and all around enjoyable people.

Now you could care less who someone is or where they're from.

[-Superman-]

Not calling anyone out because there are multiple examples of this here and elsewhere but those that insist on informing everyone--even politely--about how much better they are than everyone else are considered by some to be part of the problem.

I would agree with this whole heartedly. I think it also includes people who insist on gearchecking even after the raid has started, the guy who thinks recount is his own personal scoreboard, the gatherer who just grabs nodes and quest items without even checking with anyone else to see if they have a proff that could be used for these items, and a host of other examples yet to be shown all eluding to the walking definition of an elitist jerk.

Gear checking, is smart, and should be done appropriately. Recount is a useful tool to measure dmg or DPS against a rage time, not an epeen yardstick. Mining is awesome, but maybe there are other miners in your group to share nodes with? Blizzard made the game what it was, and since then, people have made the game what it is. LFD / LFR pretty much destroyed the need for civility and inter-server cooperation amongst those Looking For Dungeon runs.

When the accountability stick got shoved through the wood chipper with the intro of LFD / LFR, people could finally start showing their true colors and play their solo MMO the way THEY wanted to play. Kinda sad really.