What do you think of the controversy surrounding China?

[Deleted]

My view is evil is much like sociopathy, you know what is right and wrong you just don't care and will do whatever it takes to further your won goals.
Pretty much the Chinese government to a tee.

No.

Your perception of right and wrong is from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Chinese perception of right and wrong is from Confucianism.

Different perception does not make them evil.

[Kaleredar]

No.

Your perception of right and wrong is from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Chinese perception of right and wrong is from Confucianism.

Different perception does not make them evil.

See, you keep harping this point... People aren't really talking about "the ways businessmen honor their contracts and family."

They're more talking about... human rights violations, information suppression, and deplorable and exploitative working conditions.

While I'm no Confucian scholar, I'm fairly certain he wasn't too supportive of such things. (Just like how the bible isn't too keen on amassing hordes of money for the sake of having hordes of money, intentionally shorting people on business deals, etc...)

[Frenegade42]

"no country is evil" "evil is only a perspective".
Fuck. Please. Spoken truely as someone lounging in the freedoms provided by their own countries.

I'm sorry if my firmly planting a flag on one side of an argument offends all the self-hating westerners.

China is way down my list of places I would like to live, and my children to live after me. People are swimming to leave China to come to the West. Not the other way around.

[Sand Person]

their people - no

their gov - yes and no. that goes for pretty much every country, though.

[skatblast]

I personally think they are on par with Russia. No more or less evil.

[jbombard]

No.

Your perception of right and wrong is from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Chinese perception of right and wrong is from Confucianism.

Different perception does not make them evil.

I'm guessing you have no idea what Confucianism is. Because Confucianism has a much higher ethical standard, and is blatantly obvious that their government could care less about the ethical standards proscribed in Confucianism.

[Skroe]

Evil? No.

Dangerous? Incredibly.

And the day will come when we will comprehensively take them down.

[Hiricine]

They seek the best for their people, though they're often misguided in how they do it. They're the most productive country in the world at the moment, a title that barely benefits them because they intentionally manipulate their currency, making their people poorer but making the nation richer.

Probably 70% of the stuff in the room I'm in right now was made in China, furniture, electronics (including my keyboard and most computer parts), and clothes. And it was cheaper after putting it in a container, shipping it across the ocean, putting it in the back of a truck, driving it halfway across the country, and there to be picked up at my local store.

So actually, I owe China quite a bit for what its selfishly given me instead of its own people.

[Cybran]

Me personally? I'm pretty sure if they all lined up single-file and let me shoot at them, I'd die of old age before I could kill them all.
Odd that you'd enjoy seeing that, though. Seems like it'd be a hard thing to watch. But hey, I've got some weird hobbies too, so no judgement here.

He said you as in America. Don't act stupid.

On topic: They are not evil. They are suffering from a corrupt political class like all former communist states. They have a real strong sense of national pride and well defined national interests. This is very good for them, but very dangerous for their neighbors. They slowly take over Mongolian natural resources, they continue to be a danger to Taiwan, they have claims and old grudges towards Japan. None of that is evil, but it could become dangerous for everyone involved.

China is one of the biggest investors in my country lately. I have no problem with them expanding their business here since that means jobs. The only chinese people i know own the local chinese restaurant. Their food is great and cheap, but they yell a lot.

[jbombard]

...

And the day will come when we will comprehensively take them down.

I really reallly really want to believe that. But the longer we wait the worse it gets. America's cyber infrastructure is still wide open, utilities are pretty much unprotected, the focus seems to be on bringing more important systems into the cloud and without implementing the security first. China cyberattacks the U.S. daily, and many actually penetrate. They continue to copy and steal defense designs, and are spending more and more money on building defense tech. Luckily their production quality is somewhat lacking at the moment, but that is only an issue of time. If their military tech even starts to approach what the U.S. has we are pretty much screwed. We are ridiculously far behind in cyberwarfare, and protection. Imagine if they started to put viral code in the embedded programs of all the consumer hardware/military parts they sell us. Honestly if it is going to happen it better happen soon, because if we wait and hope for the best, I think we are all going to end up speaking Chinese.

[Evil Inside]

Very suprised(not) to see salandrin as the OP of such a thread.

OT: No, the government might be fucked but the rest are just normal people.

[Kaleredar]

I really reallly really want to believe that. But the longer we wait the worse it gets. America's cyber infrastructure is still wide open, utilities are pretty much unprotected, the focus seems to be on bringing more important systems into the cloud and without implementing the security first. China cyberattacks the U.S. daily, and many actually penetrate. They continue to copy and steal defense designs, and are spending more and more money on building defense tech. Luckily their production quality is somewhat lacking at the moment, but that is only an issue of time. If their military tech even starts to approach what the U.S. has we are pretty much screwed. We are ridiculously far behind in cyberwarfare, and protection. Imagine if they started to put viral code in the embedded programs of all the consumer hardware/military parts they sell us. Honestly if it is going to happen it better happen soon, because if we wait and hope for the best, I think we are all going to end up speaking Chinese.

An economic decline of China is much more likely than some sort of future war. Their own infrastructure is far from strong or advanced.

An interesting question is how much longer the people of China will continue to tolerate such working conditions. Huge factory companies have no stake in China other than cheap labor; the second it becomes economically viable to go somewhere cheaper, said companies will do so. That, right there, would be a massive blow to China.

Strong countries have strong middle classes, both economically and socially... Historically, having a bunch of poor people and a handful of rich people isn't a recipe for prolonged national stability. And a middle class isn't grown on slave labor factory jobs.

[Zhangfei]

Not at all. I absolutely love China. I don't agree with her state capitalism one bit and they've had some damn evil leaders, but Chinese culture is one of my favourites.

[obdigore]

An economic decline of China is much more likely than some sort of future war. Their own infrastructure is far from strong or advanced.

An interesting question is how much longer the people of China will continue to tolerate such working conditions. Huge factory companies have no stake in China other than cheap labor; the second it becomes economically viable to go somewhere cheaper, said companies will do so. That, right there, would be a massive blow to China.

Strong countries have strong middle classes (which aren't supported by slave labor factory jobs) both economically and socially... Historically, having a bunch of poor people and a handful of rich people isn't a recipe for prolonged national stability.

That is what happened to India as well. They were smart enough to take a ton of the money they were getting for cheap labor and pouring it into schools and universities to start getting the jobs that can't shift to countries willing to work their citizens to death, because once your people demand changes that money goes away.

[Cybran]

Strong countries have strong middle classes (which aren't supported by slave labor factory jobs) both economically and socially... Historically, having a bunch of poor people and a handful of rich people isn't a recipe for prolonged national stability.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news...lass/index.htm

It is estimated that it's more than 300 million -- already larger than the entire population of the United States.
About 25% of the population is middle class. It's about 50% of the urban population.

You were saying?

[obdigore]

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news...lass/index.htm

You were saying?

Less than a quarter of their population is middle class, and the 'middle class' is 10k-60k US. That article doesn't prove the point you want it to.

[Deleted]

They're more talking about... human rights violations, information suppression, and deplorable and exploitative working conditions.

They're all relative.

Working conditions may seem deplorable and exploitative to you, but they're a whole lot better than conditions for subsistence farmers. Which is where most Chinese come from.

Chinese "human rights violations and information suppression" sound terrible to you - but let's consider freedom of speech in the US:
http://www.shmoop.com/free-speech/th...ment-1900.html
the legal understandings of freedom of speech at 1800 and 1900 were essentially the same: the amendment imposed a restriction only on Congress and its essential purpose was to deny Congress the power to impose prior restraints. It did not impose restrictions on the states, nor did it protect individuals from being punished for the content of their speech. The primary legal tool for evaluating the appropriateness of speech was the bad tendency test, the British common law principle that allowed judges and juries to consider what might have happened as a consequence of a statement. What actually did happen was beside the point. If the Court could imagine a plausible set of negative events resulting from an individual's statement, he could be convicted of sedition on the basis of this fabricated scenario.
That was the 19th century US interpretation of freedom of speech: Not very free at all.

China is not a developed country. During the 19th and first half of the 20th century, it was an undeveloped mess. Between 1950 and 1976, Mao Zedong ruthlessly tried to develop the country on communist/maoist principles. The communist method didn't work, and many of the results were disaster, but the basic goal was good: China desperately needed to develop.

After Mao's death, China adopted more capitalist reforms. That was around 1979, and that is when the country started to develop.

That same development in the West began in the first half of the 19th century. We've been at it for more than 150 years. China found the path only 35 years ago. Of course they're behind! That's why I cited the 19th century description of freedom of speech in the US: In terms of development by Western standards, China is still in the 19th century. It doesn't make them evil, it means they have a lot of catching up to do.

[Kaleredar]

That is what happened to India as well. They were smart enough to take a ton of the money they were getting for cheap labor and pouring it into schools and universities to start getting the jobs that can't shift to countries willing to work their citizens to death, because once your people demand changes that money goes away.

An interesting point to further consider is that many of these companies that freely shift their labor base are "headed" in the United States... meaning money eventually (in theory...) makes its way back. Many of the raw materials that are shipped to other countries to be assembled in factories are actually produced within the United States; it's just cheaper to compile them into something elsewhere because the labor standards aren't as high. But if the "it's cheaper to make them elsewhere" spots start drying up, or become more spread out and obscure, the economic feasibility of exporting the materials becomes much less pronounced.

[Deleted]

If China is evil then the US is the mother of everything evil.

[bohapjut]

China is the Mordor to America's Gondor.