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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    SI:7 is the most useless "intelligence" organisation that ever existed is the point.
    Maybe if they stoped using halloween masks as cover...

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Yeah okay, I'm done with you. You are ignoring so much of the lore and are effectively asking for Thrall to be a Mary Sue, and that's just... so wrong...

    I thought this'd be a fun mental exercise, but I think I'll retire early in the comfort that I at least understand the political and social intricacies of the Horde and the events which led to Garrosh's rise to power.
    I figured you were running out of things to argue with me over so i'll just say this as a final thought. taco couch muffins.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by theKarn View Post
    I figured you were running out of things to argue with me over so i'll just say this as a final thought. taco couch muffins.
    No he's right. There was a lot of political issues which were beginning to pop up prior to Cataclysm that Thrall was trying to deal with, and then Azeroth needed him. You're asking him to do two very difficult things at the same time when he could only focus on one. Protecting both the Horde's interests and trying to fix a rift in the world that Deathwing made at the same time seems mary sueish to me. I bet you hated the 4.1 questline too *rollseyes*

    I would really take his advice to heart and read the books. You would learn something.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Veltherian View Post
    I bet you hated the 4.1 questline too *rollseyes*
    Wait, who didnt hate it...

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Veltherian View Post
    No he's right. There was a lot of political issues which were beginning to pop up prior to Cataclysm that Thrall was trying to deal with, and then Azeroth needed him. You're asking him to do two very difficult things at the same time when he could only focus on one. Protecting both the Horde's interests and trying to fix a rift in the world that Deathwing made at the same time seems mary sueish to me. I bet you hated the 4.1 questline too *rollseyes*
    Actually, I didn't hate them. I very much enjoyed playing through them. It's just that Metzen had already made Thrall into a mary sue long before I came around.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Wait, who didnt hate it...
    I didn't!

    It was an okay representation of Thrall's inner conflicts. Regardless of your feelings over whether there was too much Thrall in Cata, it showed a lot of complexity in his character that people take for granted, and yet call him a terrible character despite that. It's kinda stupid. Average players would make terrible writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by theKarn View Post
    Actually, I didn't hate them. I very much enjoyed playing through them. It's just that Metzen had already made Thrall into a mary sue long before I came around.
    Thrall doesn't fit any aspect of the mary sue definition to a degree where any legitimate writer would call him such. It's just a term used by the uneducated to say "I don't like this guy for some reason that really doesn't matter!"

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Veltherian View Post
    I didn't!

    It was an okay representation of Thrall's inner conflicts. Regardless of your feelings over whether there was too much Thrall in Cata, it showed a lot of complexity in his character that people take for granted, and yet call him a terrible character despite that. It's kinda stupid. Average players would make terrible writers.
    Complexity? It was just Metzen reading complaints about how Thrall is flawless and started to think "You think he has no flaws? I WILL THROW HIS FLAWS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE! AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!".

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Complexity? It was just Metzen reading complaints about how Thrall is flawless and started to think "You think he has no flaws? I WILL THROW HIS FLAWS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE! AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!".
    His flaws were already known to people who payed attention.

    Fun fact: he displayed fewer flaws prior to cataclysm-era books.
    Last edited by Veltherian; 2013-02-22 at 09:56 AM.

  9. #89
    Bloodsail Admiral Getreuer's Avatar
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    One word: PMS!

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Veltherian View Post
    His flaws were already known to people who payed attention.

    Fun fact: he displayed fewer flaws PRIOR to cataclysm-era books.
    Just because superman has a weakness to kryponite doesn't mean he's not flawless.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by theKarn View Post
    Just because superman has a weakness to kryponite doesn't mean he's not flawless.
    Except Thrall had well fleshed out flaws that people seem to love to mention and yet ignore and not an unsubtle weakness like Superman.

    Like how neutral he tried to be while Warchief. It's both a flaw and a strength of Thrall's character.
    Last edited by Veltherian; 2013-02-22 at 10:01 AM.

  12. #92
    Note that each of the Sha in the Tranquil Master achievement can somewhat reasonably have a tie to Garrosh at some point in his journey:

    He has a desire for violence that is drawn from his aggression in Northrend. Then suddenly, Wild Deathwing Appears! And Thrall hands the reins of the Horde to Garrosh. Garrosh initially doubts that he has what is needed, which turns into despair at the tactics of the Forsaken in both Gilneas and Hillsbrad. Garrosh hates what happened to his father, and he tries desperately to live up to the ideals of Thrall.

    However, without guidance, he turns to violence in order to solve the Theramore problem. This fans the flames of anger on both sides, leading to the discovery of Pandaria.

    If there is a tie to Y'shaarj with the Sha, it is theoretically possible that Garrosh is suffering from a similar "fall from grace" to Arthas' transition into a Death Knight, then the Lich King. Which isn't to say that it's ham-handed at best, but it offers a potential explanation.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by theKarn View Post
    Just because superman has a weakness to kryponite doesn't mean he's not flawless.
    The thing is Thrall has character flaws and actually makes mistakes, he's not perfect. Superman may have a physical weakness but his character is always spotless without mistakes too perfect imo.

  14. #94
    He just needs a woman, haven't seen him get any since well, forever .....

    Quote Originally Posted by MMOmaxi View Post
    The one thing i don't understand about Garrosh is how he went from executing his general for bombing Stonetalon to bombing Theramore himself.
    If his progression is consistent in lore, than which piece of lore should i consult to figure out that particular transition?
    Stonetalon was a 'school' with druids with little to no military value, Theramore was a major military target used to supply and bring in troops and was also damn close to the hordes capital city and other strongholds.
    Last edited by Bubalus; 2013-02-22 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by theKarn View Post
    You don't abandon your people, first off, and secondly you can't hold up a mirror while firing dragon lasers and still be part of the horde? I don't recall the aspects giving thrall an ultimatum on the matter.

    As for my choice? You tell your people that "we're going to do this together" then do it alone. After you come back you just say "We did it!".

    I believe Thrall should be outed by the people of the horde for abandoning them. This wasn't just a mistake it was him turning his back on them.

    Sure have characters make mistakes, but expecting them to save the world and be able to come back as if it never happened.... come on.
    actually in the last book jaina personally asked thrall to return as warchief and to boot garrosh back in outland, he flat out refused cause mending the planet require it's full attention and he can't fix the planet with the ER and also solve the war btw alliance and horde, again mending azeroth still on going and also it still draining the most powerfull shamans power not only thrall but nobudo (the draenei shaman trainer) and all the other upper echelon of the ER.
    Oh also jaina after theramore destruction put the blame on thrall for leaving garrosh in charge and tried to kill him and wipe orgrimmar, thank god she was stopped by kalec, but thrall has long ego realized the error of putting in charge garrosh and has 5.1 stated he is slowly coming back to solve the issue, returning as warchief or not thrall is gonna play a role in the upcoming demise of garrosh.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Ergar View Post
    One word. Sha
    How could Sha influence him even before he arrives Pandaria?
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  17. #97
    because Blizzard needs to make sure at the end of expansion everyone will be ok with killing him

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Because Blizz's been pretty schizophrenic in handling his characterization.
    This pretty much explains it. And their latest change to make Garrosh more evil was probably to please the fans and to give MoP a true end boss (which many complained about that it lacked). The only reason to announce Garrosh as final boss of the expansion, prior to the launch, is the reason I listed above: to please the fans.

    In my opinion, Blizzard should grow some backbone and start telling the story they WANT to tell, instead of listening to the fans too much.
    Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 had good stories, so I'm sure they can do it again. But now everything comes in small patches over time and fans voice their opinion... Blizzard should listen to them less. Right now it only serves to create an unimaginative compromise.

    For example, the blood elf guy getting screentime, that's fanservice as well because many had asked for it.
    Garrosh getting the boot: fanservice, because lots of people didn't like him. Jaina becoming more aggressive: fanservice.

    Heck, I'm getting the feeling that the only part about MoP that's truly original Blizzard work are the Pandaren and their storyline.
    You know, the thing about taking care of your farm and brewing beer...
    Last edited by Hardstyler01; 2013-02-22 at 03:55 PM.

  19. #99
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Gotta love these threads and what people say on it, always the same.

    - People assume Garrosh is only the way he is now because of the sha.. hahaha
    - People ignore what even the lore writers, you know, the people who are actually PART OF the story development say about him.
    - They can't acknowledge when its said he is a weak character at his core, making him malleable.

    Its so funny when they say all this aggression and bad karma has only surfaced now. Bullcrap, you've just been so strung up on whats on the surface, such as Garrosh's aggression, that you failed to notice his weakness. Christie Golden summed it up perfectly, and to that end, this is not about Garrosh being a character who has been thrown around, this is about a character who used all his bluster and brovado to convince morons he was something special, when in true, he's just a child and weak underneath.

  20. #100
    Extremely small penis, seriously even gnomes laugh at him.

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