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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    ROFL. This is the worst pvp expansion yet, blizzards talks a lot as usual but they aren't trying to do shit for pvp. It's all about the LFRtards and if something is broken beyong belief in pvp they might take a look at it after a month or five.
    I disagree. This season is bad, but there were seasons in BC and such where if you weren't a Mace-stun warrior, Resto druid, or SL/SL lock, your 2v2 life was hell. Past seasons have had comps like RMP. Yeah, classes like Warriors, Frost Mages, BM hunters, etc, have been strong as hell this patch, past seasons have been far from perfect.

    Blizzard needs to start nerfing more with hotfixes if the problem is serious. Things such as TFB and Stampede bug should have been changed very quickly. That's about it.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    PVE has more time dedicated to it I'm certain, but I wouldn't call PVP just a "side game". I highly doubt they'd organize tournaments that pay real money for just a "side game".

  3. #23
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    IMO pvp is the side of WoW that's keeping it back, blizzard tried it out as an E-sport but that backfired because it needs so much bloody attention which in the end hurts class balance (alot) overall.
    Yes wow pvp has a spot but it should have own talent specs that can't be use anywhere else, then there's the issue with pvp gear. If I want to do dailies now or go out in the open world and I run into someone that want's to fight and they got pvp gear I'm always gonna lose because of pvp power and resilience. The whole "pvp" crap should stay INSIDE pvp grounds and not be let out in the open world, atleast the pvp resilience and power should be disabled once in the open world.
    A oriented group of 5 pvpers in pvp gear can EASILY take down 10-15 people in the open world, that's just WRONG. Feel like I HAVE to grind up pvp gear in the last tier of MoP and have it ready for the next expansion launch just so I can quest without getting 2shotted by any pvper in the open world...
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    IMO pvp is the side of WoW that's keeping it back, blizzard tried it out as an E-sport but that backfired because it needs so much bloody attention which in the end hurts class balance (alot) overall.
    Yes wow pvp has a spot but it should have own talent specs that can't be use anywhere else, then there's the issue with pvp gear. If I want to do dailies now or go out in the open world and I run into someone that want's to fight and they got pvp gear I'm always gonna lose because of pvp power and resilience. The whole "pvp" crap should stay INSIDE pvp grounds and not be let out in the open world, atleast the pvp resilience and power should be disabled once in the open world.
    A oriented group of 5 pvpers in pvp gear can EASILY take down 10-15 people in the open world, that's just WRONG. Feel like I HAVE to grind up pvp gear in the last tier of MoP and have it ready for the next expansion launch just so I can quest without getting 2shotted by any pvper in the open world...
    Tons of people disagree with you. If you don't like world PvP... there are servers that don't have it. If you play on a PvP server, it kind of kills any chance to complain you have.

    Also... the way ratings work, as soon as someone hits 91 their resilience and pvp power become less effective. Again at 92... etc. Also, the best PvP gear won't let you 3v1 unless the players without gear have no idea how to fight a player. Maybe 2v1, not 3v1. But either way... don't like world pvp, don't play on a pvp server. I love world pvp. Lots of people loved world pvp.

    And how does PvP really hurt class balance overall? A majority of the OP things in PvP are things like Warbringer-Shockwave. About the only place in PvE this is good would be challenge modes, and honestly its pretty damn OP for that too. In the past, they have tried to compromise with big, necessary abilities. Look at how they dealt with colossus smash. They didn't just make it 50% across the board, because that would have hurt warrior pve.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    ROFL. This is the worst pvp expansion yet, blizzards talks a lot as usual but they aren't trying to do shit for pvp. It's all about the LFRtards and if something is broken beyong belief in pvp they might take a look at it after a month or five.
    You must be new, Cata was easily the worst pvp exp.

    Also do you not remember SL/SL lock lmao?

  6. #26
    PvP is basically the 2nd phase of the game after u spam use spells in boring scenarios in PvE so u can learn your spells.

  7. #27
    its always been a side game. the core of wow is leveling up then raiding.

  8. #28
    Well, this game went live with no pvp of any sort other than "open world pvp" which was just letting players on pvp servers attack each other without any thought to balance (unbreakable warlock fear ftw).

    So their attitude on PvP was that it wasn't important enough to hold up launch.

  9. #29
    Frankly, I think Blizzard has been entirely out of touch with what the people paying their game want to do, since about 2006 or so, and confused with what they want their players to do, and what about 5% of the people playing actually do.

    This counts for both PVE and PVP.

    I mean, look at how long it took for LFR to be in the game :x

  10. #30
    What constitutes a "side game"?

    The premise of this thread is stupid.

  11. #31
    Essentially, yes. It started out as kind of an afterthought (which is pretty obvious even today). They've put a lot of effort over the years into improving it and balancing it but it's a constant struggle. Every time PVE changes occur, it breaks PVP and they have to play catch up again.

    Not to disregard PVP, it can be a lot of fun, but it's pretty clear to everyone that WoW is a PVE game and PVP is its poor cousin. It'll never be truly balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    No. Many class changes happen because of PvP.
    Not that many, and usually just things like spreading out burst over longer windows which has little effect on PVE.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Essentially, yes. It started out as kind of an afterthought (which is pretty obvious even today). They've put a lot of effort over the years into improving it and balancing it but it's a constant struggle. Every time PVE changes occur, it breaks PVP and they have to play catch up again.

    Not to disregard PVP, it can be a lot of fun, but it's pretty clear to everyone that WoW is a PVE game and PVP is its poor cousin. It'll never be truly balanced.



    Not that many, and usually just things like spreading out burst over longer windows which has little effect on PVE.
    Arms and priests being reworked this patch are a prime example of it, IMO. Rogues to a lesser extent, but abilities are being tossed around based on how ridiculous they were in PvP. I know what you mean that PvP is an afterthought in some situations, but Blizzard is starting to listen to pvp complaints it seems. I think they realize a large portion of their playerbase really enjoys PvP.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogmanlolz View Post
    No offense to PvPers hear me out I like pvp but is it techically a side game, every major patch a new raid/dungeon gets released but not new pvp maps. It would be cool if they did a CoD style with map packs(free of course) every major patch. Anyways is PvP a side game to blizz?
    PvP maps stay relevant, Raids don't.

    Edit, PvE people who're mostly awful at PvP would love for PvP to be entirely removed or sidelined. They are the ones constantly making up some kind of weird arguments about how PvP is only a "mini game" and "shouldn't be taken into consideration". You can see them doing this in this very thread. Gotta hate them.
    Last edited by Deleth; 2013-02-25 at 03:20 AM.

  14. #34
    it's definitely not the main focus, if that's what you mean.

  15. #35
    People who says PvP is a mini-game are clearly PvE folks that are raging over PvP-oriented changes.

    If there were no PvP in WoW, I would never have played it for so long.

    I started only doing dungeons when LFD got into the game, and that was only while leveling. I cba to fight the same dungeon over and over again with static mobs that does the same shit.

    I played BG's since vanilla. Though I do not enjoy Arena.

    WoW has the best PvP nowadays - or at least a PvP that is alive.

    GW2 has too... But GW2 was not my cup of tea.

  16. #36
    There are two ways to progress your character at the end game. PvE and PvP.
    What people don't understand is that PvE NEEDS to be updated constantly, because PvE content gets obsolete (and boring) quickly.
    PvP stays relevant (as long as the balance is somewhat acceptable) even when you only have few maps.
    That is why Blizzard focuses on PvE more and not because "WoW is a PvE game".

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Tons of people disagree with you. If you don't like world PvP... there are servers that don't have it. If you play on a PvP server, it kind of kills any chance to complain you have.

    Also... the way ratings work, as soon as someone hits 91 their resilience and pvp power become less effective. Again at 92... etc. Also, the best PvP gear won't let you 3v1 unless the players without gear have no idea how to fight a player. Maybe 2v1, not 3v1. But either way... don't like world pvp, don't play on a pvp server. I love world pvp. Lots of people loved world pvp.

    And how does PvP really hurt class balance overall? A majority of the OP things in PvP are things like Warbringer-Shockwave. About the only place in PvE this is good would be challenge modes, and honestly its pretty damn OP for that too. In the past, they have tried to compromise with big, necessary abilities. Look at how they dealt with colossus smash. They didn't just make it 50% across the board, because that would have hurt warrior pve.
    Right, because "pvp" realms are played because people choose so and not because their guild is there or their friends are there. I'm all for world pvp, that's not the issue. The issue is when pvp geared people meet those who aren't. Simply making all "resilience" ratings only "on" in BGs, arenas and pvp areas like wintergrasp or other pvp zones like that would fix that error.

    And PvP not hurting class balance in PvE? (this goes both ways btw)
    Ret paladins, IF we get too strong damage then we can kill people in a stun, that ontop of bubble, hand of freedom and selfheals and hand of sac to stop sheeps and so on gets too much. So instead of increasing damage which rets need in PvE and PvP blizzard try to work on "support" and survivability changes for pvp to compensate, WHY? Oh just because nobody wants a repeat of the time ret paladins went around with Seal of Blood and 3 shotted people at WotLK launch.
    Rets have great utility and good survivability and a toolkit that clears many mobility things, if that gets combined with strong damage it will be unbalanced. Sadly survivability, utiliy and mobility doesn't help in PvE when you're rock bottom dps single target and aoe.

    Same goes for other classes. Elemental shamans hurt in pve and pvp atm because of the same reasons, they can burst like hell and if the base damage allows it then it's gonna be unbalanced in pvp. What happens is that ele shamans are weak in both parts of the game (buffed in 5.2 unlike ret tho)

    Then there's examples on how pve sometimes ruin pvp balance. Disc priests are really strong in pve this patch, next patch they're getting mana and absorb nerfed quite hard which is gonna hurt pvp. How much it's gonna hurt pvp disc priests I don't know but I'd imagine they'll feel it.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-02-25 at 11:27 AM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Yeah, but that game was far from balanced (not saying a balanced game = good game exactly but just that DAOC wasn't balanced at all)
    Actually it pretty much has the best PvP balance of any MMORPG as well, despite having 45 different classes. With the exception of the solo classes (Assassins, Archers, Mauler) you can fit any class in a group setup and have it work well. Mythic also fixes balances issues carefully, not like Blizzard's huge sweeping nerfs/buffs that often break more than they fix. It's not perfect, but it's still the best there is, by a huge margin.

    Also, it's the only MMORPG that actually has a functioning PvP system, RvR. No bullshit instanced boxes where you always know in advance what's going to happen because there are no adds, surprising incs and too few players as well as too little space for any tactical depth to develop. No stupid instanced battlegrounds where you're forced to play with 5-10 random idiots because that's the only way they'll ever get into a group. Mythic tried to do it again with WAR (but of course EA fucked it up and made them release an unfinished game), RIFT tried to copy it (though far too late), but apparently accidentally made another Lol Barad, GW2 probably had the closest attempt, but their engine couldn't handle large amounts of players so you'd constantly be killed by invisible armies.

    PvP in WoW is like eating junk food. It's fast, it's convenient, it's easy, it's short-term satisfactory, you don't need any manners, ... but it sure as hell isn't good food or a viable long-term solution.

  19. #39
    There is this "World" of Warcraft that noone ever visits. Beside that we have some mini games such as BG, RBG, Arena, Dungeon, LFR, LFG, Pet Battles, Challenge Modes. It seems to be an impossible task for Blizz to get these together in one game.

    See the new daily quests in Krasarang for example. They want to offer an opportunity for open PvP. But then this area is so cramped with quite hard hitting npc that it seems to be the better choice to do those quests in PvE gear and to pass on PvP action. Or to gank those who are questing in PvE gear. ^^

    I really don´t understand why we need to have different gear for PvE and PvP. There was a valid reason in classic when T3 was a) too powerful and b) better than PvP gear. But Resilience (and now PvP-Power) was implemented in a wrong way. It would have been better, if Resilience was derived from Stamina and PvP-Power was derived from the main stat on ALL items (PvE and PvP). They could even be hidden stats. To balance accessibility Blizz would have to offer the same iLvl in PvP and PvE: 463 for BG or Dungeons, 476 for LFR or PvP-Rating below 1500, ..., 504 for HC-Raiders or 2400+ PvP-Rating. Something like this.


    Quote Originally Posted by dokilar View Post
    in my opinion i do feel like they pay more attention to the pve side of things but i believe its mostly due to the fact that thats probably where a majority of their subscribers play.
    True. But they don´t question those numbers. To picture this: Imagine you love PvP and you like PvE. But the game you play sucks in PvP and shines in PvE. Which aspect would you play? Where would your number show up?

  20. #40
    I think the whole map point is nonesense. We have plenty of PvP maps, which are almost always added each expansion, and a nice amount of different game types. I don't need a million PvP maps when there are still only 10(just a random number) different game types.

    PvP has become a core part of WoW since arenas were added as a form of rated PvP. PvP balance, however, is quite hard to achieve for the devs.

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