Try limit boss fights.

[alturic]

Then raiding is not for you.

Actually, he's point is pretty good. Dragging a fight out to 10+ minutes doesn't somehow make it "hard".

[ZeleNC]

For people who "Raid" like myself, Ra-den will be a reward. It is NOT the final boss of TotTK but it is a reward after completing the whole instance on Heroic. Very similar to how Alagon was in Ulduar, except he was made for progression. Most people's BiS came from that boss, and while he had a TIME limit, this is going to have an attempt Limit. Which means, rather than rushing to have to get as many attempts in as possible, you will simply have to sit down after a wipe and thing to yourself how you can fix "X" ability.

This about this boss as extra credit. If you dont know or feel the significance behind this boss, then, no offense, you'll probably never see this boss, along with Sinestra. Again it's an effort to reward those who can accomplish everything on Heroic, and still find a way to master this boss.

Side Note: I wonder if they will even make a Dungeon Journal for this guy. *tin foil hat*

[alturic]

their alts are already geared up with what on live to be able to do heroic t15 content when it releases?

There are already numerous threads about this, pages long. There didnt need to be another one thats extra insipid ontop of that.

It is a limited attempt heroic-only BONUS boss. An extra, exceptionally difficult, heroic boss that few of the population will be able to reach. And it in NO WAY limits progress, because. it. is. an. extra. boss.

Counters against the "they'll just throw alts at it" have already been posted.

Let's be real here, a boss, that drops gear, is not an "optional" boss to real raiders. Contrary to what Blizzard and some people may say, LFR is not "optional" in the early stages of gearing either.

The ONLY way you could consider a boss to be optional (regardless of difficulty) is if it literally drops no stat altering items.

[Tehterokkar]

Calm down? I was just stating a fact.

It was quite obvious sarcasm.

[ZeleNC]

You're going to tell me that a single boss taking 25 minutes to kill isn't excessive?

Have you ever played any of the Monster Hunter games? That series is actually quite popular, and it makes boss fights in WoW look like trash.

[Ryme]

Maybe I'm missing something but even if these top guilds did get extra tries with alts... what does it matter?

Design. Design matters for everyone, whether you're effected by something or not, if someone else is, then the design for that piece of content for that person matters.

To what degree is a whole other debate.

[Tenjen]

Let's be real here, a boss, that drops gear, is not an "optional" boss to real raiders. Contrary to what Blizzard and some people may say, LFR is not "optional" in the early stages of gearing either.

The ONLY way you could consider a boss to be optional (regardless of difficulty) is if it literally drops no stat altering items.

Where did i use the word optional? i said Heroic-only bonus boss. An extra boss. but non of those are synonyms for "optional". You want his loot, you learn to beat him with all his difficulty in the attempts given. The loot is primarily a reward for those who manage to do so, not a toss out to put the raid on farm status sooner. Its primarily created to be a test of skill, the other bosses exist to gear you out.

[kangamooster]

their alts are already geared up with what on live to be able to do heroic t15 content when it releases?

There are already numerous threads about this, pages long. There didnt need to be another one thats extra insipid ontop of that.

It is a limited attempt heroic-only BONUS boss. An extra, exceptionally difficult, heroic boss that few of the population will be able to reach. And it in NO WAY limits progress, because. it. is. an. extra. boss.

Counters against the "they'll just throw alts at it" have already been posted.

Uh... yes they do.

Top guilds don't have people raiding on only one character, EVER. Even for the start of T14, top raiding guilds had multiple geared 90s to take into MSV progression.

[ZeleNC]

Let's be real here, a boss, that drops gear, is not an "optional" boss to real raiders. Contrary to what Blizzard and some people may say, LFR is not "optional" in the early stages of gearing either.

The ONLY way you could consider a boss to be optional (regardless of difficulty) is if it literally drops no stat altering items.

The gear that will drop from every other Heroic boss will be better than what drops from Ra-den... So your theory is flawed. This boss will have no upgrades, nor will it has BiS gear, unless if you're still in gear that is pre-heroic.

And a second note, LFR is completely optional. Even hardcore guilds dont always work on LFR. Its all about player skill not gear.

(My memory may be flawed alittle, so help me out if you can) If you go back to Naxx, when that instance was first made available to the Korean servers. They were in extremely low gear, yet were able to completely clear the instance without a problem, even in previous teir gear without any upgrades from Naxx. They ever responded with something along the lines of "...I thought this was to be challenging..." If you can get gear from Heroics, and you have the skill and the knowledge how to avoid abilities, why even waste your time in LFR? Not all guilds do.

[Shepherd57]

You're going to tell me that a single boss taking 25 minutes to kill isn't excessive?

I will tell you that a 25 minute boss fight would be fine as long as it was an endurance test.

[Secrecy]

Sad thing is, the top guilds are going to make alts go through this boss, despite what the devs may think. Their alts are already geared up to the point where they could do heroic content in T15. Maybe they won't be in there doing Ra'den on the first week of heroics, but by week 2 of heroics? Probably.

The impression I got from what the devs were saying is that Ra-den will probably be down by the 2nd or 3rd reset anyway. I mean it's been compared to Algalon and Algalon died in 3 resets, at an hour per reset and a 6-minute enrage the average try including run-back was probably 5 minutes (and I think that's being generous considering how long it took to get back). So really, best case scenario, you were getting 12 attempts per reset on Algalon, Considering the amount of problems the encounter had early on I doubt they were getting that many. But they also had a 10-man reset which doesn't directly translate to 25 but it certainly helps. All-in-all, Algalon had somewhere below 24 very rushed and hurried attempts per week. Ra-den will have 30 much more thought-out, carefully planned attempts per week all on the actual difficulty that you'll be killing it on.

I was really annoyed when the news broke about limited attempts making a return but I think the things Blizzard have said about it have made me think it might work out just fine. This is all complete speculation but I think guilds will use alts if it lasts for 3+ weeks but I honestly don't think it will. I would imagine they will kill the Thunder King somewhere towards the end of the second week, have 30 attempts that reset and then kill it on the 2nd reset.

[alturic]

The gear that will drop from every other Heroic boss will be better than what drops from Ra-den... So your theory is flawed. This boss will have no upgrades, nor will it has BiS gear, unless if you're still in gear that is pre-heroic.

And a second note, LFR is completely optional. Even hardcore guilds dont always work on LFR. Its all about player skill not gear.

(My memory may be flawed alittle, so help me out if you can) If you go back to Naxx, when that instance was first made available to the Korean servers. They were in extremely low gear, yet were able to completely clear the instance without a problem, even in previous teir gear without any upgrades from Naxx. They ever responded with something along the lines of "...I thought this was to be challenging..." If you can get gear from Heroics, and you have the skill and the knowledge how to avoid abilities, why even waste your time in LFR? Not all guilds do.

Two words. Set Bonus. Hell, remember all the outrage when smart people (top guilds included ofc) figured out how to (I use the word extremely lightly) "abuse" the loot system? That right there goes to show LFR isn't "optional".

Naxx... was easy. It was probably one of the most under-tuned instances of all time. You are right about player skill outweighs gear, remember OS3D being done in blues? The majority of the population could barely do it with full epics. That doesn't mean top guilds don't value LFR for the tier though.

[ZeleNC]

Two words. Set Bonus. Hell, remember all the outrage when smart people (top guilds included ofc) figured out how to (I use the word extremely lightly) "abuse" the loot system? That right there goes to show LFR isn't "optional".

Naxx... was easy. It was probably one of the most under-tuned instances of all time. You are right about player skill outweighs gear, remember OS3D being done in blues? The majority of the population could barely do it with full epics. That doesn't mean top guilds don't value LFR for the tier though.

No set bonus so far in Mists, has been as POWERFUL as Tier 13's.

[Deleted]

Then raiding is not for you.

well, im 15/16 hc bosses atm, not a problem at all with the other bosses, but jesus, that sha hc boss is just taking its toll..

[Surfd]

Actually he said the fight would be easier than Lei Shen
The problem is that you have to beat every boss on heroic including Lei Shen before Ra-Den's room will open, so you need alts with 100% hc completion

Petty much this. In order to use alts to do "test runs" at Ra-Den, you would still need a seperate, fully heroic cleared instance ID for them to do it in.

Unless they can find another guild who can full clear the place on heroic who would let them take their Alts into that ID to spend attempts "practicing" on Ra-Den, there really isnt any way they can "game" the system (especially since I believe Blizzard fixed the whole "realm / faction transfer resets your Lockout) thing.

[alturic]

No set bonus so far in Mists, has been as POWERFUL as Tier 13's.

So what you are trying to say is that the reason smart people decided "hey, let's "abuse" the way loot works in LFR purely because set bonuses are extremely powerful"? No, the reason was because there is no reason NOT to take free tier gear.

[Secrecy]

There is a blue reply to that - the fights are so tightly tuned that pushing alts through content is no real option. The thing is, this fight is at a skill level that probably like 5 guilds can compete for as world first - hell..could be only 3. So why worry if 30 or 50 or 100 guys are willing to either level alts or bash their heads for 72 hrs straight against a wall.

I am not entirely sure what defines a "stupid" concept for you. Why worry about how guilds approach it? The guilds that will be in the race already spend every waking hour on the PTR.

Alts is almost a misnomer though, they are essentially secondary mains. Their "alts" are going into 5.2 with better gear than many heroic guilds. If Ra-den lives for long enough I have no doubt that they will have a second group going for Ra-den, I just don't think it will.

[Surfd]

You're going to tell me that a single boss taking 25 minutes to kill isn't excessive?

Excessive is a relative term. For a WoW raid fight, 25 minutes is probably boardering on Excessive (I am pretty sure there have been a few WoW raid fights that have lasted pretty close to that. Heroic Lich King comes to mind).

However, compared to, say: an EIGHTEEN HOUR BOSS FIGHT in Final Fantasy XI, or some of the fights in Everquest, most WoW boss fights are quick and dirty affairs.

[ZeleNC]

So what you are trying to say is that the reason smart people decided "hey, let's "abuse" the way loot works in LFR purely because set bonuses are extremely powerful"? No, the reason was because there is no reason NOT to take free tier gear.

In Cata they specifically made their tanks to go into the LFR and pick up the 2 pieces because of how POWERFUL that 4-piece was. In some posts, it was the only way they got through the explosions on Heroic Spine. Yes, they abused the hell out of the loot system, but that was because they had a broke Tier bonus and people took advantage of that. But look at the set bonuses now. There are better NON-Tier pieces out there, that completely outweigh the Tier counterpart.

[Shepherd57]

Let's be real here, a boss, that drops gear, is not an "optional" boss to real raiders. Contrary to what Blizzard and some people may say, LFR is not "optional" in the early stages of gearing either.

The ONLY way you could consider a boss to be optional (regardless of difficulty) is if it literally drops no stat altering items.

LFR is optional in the fact it isn't necessary to complete Normal or Heroic. Just because some players feel it isn't optional doesn't make it true.