Try limit boss fights.

[Secrecy]

Excessive is a relative term. For a WoW raid fight, 25 minutes is probably boardering on Excessive (I am pretty sure there have been a few WoW raid fights that have lasted pretty close to that. Heroic Lich King comes to mind).

However, compared to, say: an EIGHTEEN HOUR BOSS FIGHT in Final Fantasy XI, or some of the fights in Everquest, most WoW boss fights are quick and dirty affairs.

I'm pretty sure that, excluding the RP at the end, Lich King was only like a 15 minute fight? I think that was his berserk timer at least.

[Dracodraco]

What will happen -
Top end guild that spent the past few months gearing alts to +505 item level gets 12/12 heroic on mains. Attempts ra-den till attempts are used up.
If any time left of the week to raid, start progressing 1->12 heroic on alts again.
Repeat above scenario untill either A: Main raid kills ra-den, or B: Alt raid clears 12/12 heroic and can attempt Ra-den.

[Deleted]

They have stated that the real challenge of this boss is not his limited attempts but rather the fact that there is currently (and will probably go live this way) no information regarding the boss on the dungeon journal on the ptr.

As such, the real challenge is figuring out the strategy after having figured out his abilities/phases/add-timers etc. The limited attempts is never an issue for top ranking guilds as they will most likely run their evaluation attempts on alts.

In essence, this boss is a band-aid solution for the hardcore progression raiders who will most likely plough through the instance in a couple of resets max.

On-topic: I never liked the idea of limited attempts (I remember 2% before achieving Grand Crusader we were all praying for 0 disconnects) because luck plays a huge factor and it messes up the world-first race. That is a personal opinion ofcourse.

[Dubalicious]

LFR is optional in the fact it isn't necessary to complete Normal or Heroic. Just because some players feel it isn't optional doesn't make it true.

Pretty easy to flip this argument on it's back and say "LFR is required because set bonuses (and trinkets) perpetuate the 'min/max' mentality required to compete at the highest level"

EVERYTHING is optional in this game. For some reason people really want to argue against hardcores that these things are truly 'optional' when they clearly aren't based on the rewards available. A truly optional LFR would offer ZERO potential upgrades to previous heroic content -> and that, unfortunately, is NOT the case.

[alturic]

Then riddle me what a "real" raider is among the 100 000 that do HMs and the 500 000 that do normals. Normals are released before LFR. In my book "real raiders" have an avg ilv deep in the 500s. LFraid is not optional to those? Well..and what if?

Those guys hang on the PTR. Those guys will rush raids and clear content with a dedication that you and I don't have. Am I gonna lose sleep that they are also "forced" to do LFR as you claim? Apparently they are fine forcing all sorts of other activities on themselves.

A "real" raider is someone who actually takes pride in their character maximizing it's potential. A "real" raider is someone who doesn't dick over the 24 other people in a raid and the next day tells you they wanted to "hang with bros for a beer". A "real" raider is someone who can actually play their character, does their own research and doesn't need to have their hand held. A "real" raider is someone who does go on the PTR.

Quite frankly, a "real" raider is someone who (granted it's not them specifically doing it all) is full cleared without the need for nerfs.

Speak for yourself saying you don't have dedication to your character/guild/raid team.

[Surfd]

I'm pretty sure that, excluding the RP at the end, Lich King was only like a 15 minute fight? I think that was his berserk timer at least.

Yeah, a bit of quick playing on google indicates that pretty much all Wrath Bosses have around a 15 minute enrage timer.

Four Horsemen in Naxx 40 had an enrage of exactly 25 minutes (when they reached 100 marks cast).

However, many early fights actually had NO enrage timers, so the fights "could" last a long time if you lost a lot of people but could still manage to soldier on. Neffarian kills could take 30 minutes if you lost too many dps.

[alturic]

In Cata they specifically made their tanks to go into the LFR and pick up the 2 pieces because of how POWERFUL that 4-piece was. In some posts, it was the only way they got through the explosions on Heroic Spine. Yes, they abused the hell out of the loot system, but that was because they had a broke Tier bonus and people took advantage of that. But look at the set bonuses now. There are better NON-Tier pieces out there, that completely outweigh the Tier counterpart.

It wasn't only "tanks", everyone wanted their set bonuses asap.

LFR is optional in the fact it isn't necessary to complete Normal or Heroic. Just because some players feel it isn't optional doesn't make it true.

That... pretty much means it's not "optional", no? Hell, it wasn't/isn't just the "uber l33t" that do LFR for set bonuses, it's the majority of scrub raiders too.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 11:23 AM ----------

They have stated that the real challenge of this boss is not his limited attempts but rather the fact that there is currently (and will probably go live this way) no information regarding the boss on the dungeon journal on the ptr.

As such, the real challenge is figuring out the strategy after having figured out his abilities/phases/add-timers etc. The limited attempts is never an issue for top ranking guilds as they will most likely run their evaluation attempts on alts.

In essence, this boss is a band-aid solution for the hardcore progression raiders who will most likely plough through the instance in a couple of resets max.

On-topic: I never liked the idea of limited attempts (I remember 2% before achieving Grand Crusader we were all praying for 0 disconnects) because luck plays a huge factor and it messes up the world-first race. That is a personal opinion ofcourse.

We were always praying the bear tanks batteries didn't go dead again just as he charged into Anub.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 11:23 AM ----------

Pretty easy to flip this argument on it's back and say "LFR is required because set bonuses (and trinkets) perpetuate the 'min/max' mentality required to compete at the highest level"

EVERYTHING is optional in this game. For some reason people really want to argue against hardcores that these things are truly 'optional' when they clearly aren't based on the rewards available. A truly optional LFR would offer ZERO potential upgrades to previous heroic content -> and that, unfortunately, is NOT the case.

You mean like removing tier from LFR? I'm all for that. :P

[Dubalicious]

Excessive is a relative term. For a WoW raid fight, 25 minutes is probably boardering on Excessive (I am pretty sure there have been a few WoW raid fights that have lasted pretty close to that. Heroic Lich King comes to mind).

However, compared to, say: an EIGHTEEN HOUR BOSS FIGHT in Final Fantasy XI, or some of the fights in Everquest, most WoW boss fights are quick and dirty affairs.

Loved this excerpt:

Though rewards for felling the Warden are essentially negligible, they are extremely unique to its loot pool, making the ornate weapon and armor models more trophy items than applicable gear choices.

Impossible to have an "entitled" player base with situations like this. Absolutely love it![COLOR="red"]

[KaPe]

I'm pretty sure that, excluding the RP at the end, Lich King was only like a 15 minute fight? I think that was his berserk timer at least.

Last 20+ minute boss was Illidan and Kael'thas. And none of those had horribly boring 15 minute phase in which you do the same thing over and over and over and... in an area that looks like someone forgot to put some textures in. With horribly boring 5 minute introduction.

[Deleted]

I don't think even top guilds have time to progress on 3 different toons each on the first week up to Ra-den, who knows, maybe even top guilds won't see Ra-den with their mains in the first 2-3 weeks. Other factors like RNG on gear, etc will also provide additional layers of difficulty in bringing alts to HC. If you remember, blizz said that they made Lei Shin normal with 520 ilvl in mind, HC will probably be with 540. I don't think alts will be ready to beat Lei shin so soon. We will just have to wait and see though.

In the end Ra-den isn't even part of the progression, just a bonus.

[Radalek]

Uh... yes they do.

Top guilds don't have people raiding on only one character, EVER. Even for the start of T14, top raiding guilds had multiple geared 90s to take into MSV progression.

Are you serious, really? What makes you think being BiS in current tier is enough to clear 12/13 hc in ToT? You will need T15 hc gear for those alts if they want a shot at Lei Shen hc. It will take more than few resets for that to happen. Even top guilds will spend more than one reset to get to Ra-Den at the first place. Where do you see them making time to gear up alts to make them capable for it as well? Let me know, I'm really curious.
I'm in top 30 guild, we have cleared 16/16 hc with two raids mixed with alts and mains for a while now. Our alts are BiS or close to BiS geared. Yet we have no illusions that we can beat 12/13 hc in ToT on alts for a while to get extra attempts on Ra-Den.

[Deleted]

Are you serious, really? What makes you think being BiS in current tier is enough to clear 12/13 hc in ToT? You will need T15 hc gear for those alts if they want a shot at Lei Shen hc. It will take more than few resets for that to happen. Even top guilds will spend more than one reset to get to Ra-Den at the first place. Where do you see them making time to gear up alts to make them capable for it as well? Let me know, I'm really curious.
I'm in top 30 guild, we have cleared 16/16 hc with two raids mixed with alts and mains for a while now. Our alts are BiS or close to BiS geared. Yet we have no illusions that we can beat 12/13 hc in ToT on alts for a while to get extra attempts on Ra-Den.

This. Top end raid guilds have alts decked out in gear mainly for class stacking or encounter specific stuff. Having an alt raid do 12/13 hc won't happen until some guild (or even the very same guild) got Ra-Den down with their mains.

[Meleti]

Pretty sure it was GC that commented on that worry. The fight is intended to be ridiculously difficult, so alts won't really be an option. I can't be asked to find the actual blue post, so dig around a little bit if you want the actual quote.

That's wrong. Most progression alts are 502-510 ilvl, they're going to be able to do Ra-Den progression their alts. You clear 12/13 with your mains, and then if 13/13 is actually hard enough to warrant alt raiding you start clearing 12/13 with mixed groups of about 2/3 alts and 1/3 mains. Fielding 3 raids to farm HC gear will be enough to allow alts to make attempts, and if you funnel gear to your mains it's going to be enough to allow your mains to take down the boss, too.

[PBitt]

I don't think it's going to be a big deal beyond the first week or two of top guilds progressing on it, to be honest. They said Heroic Thunder King is supposed to be harder than him by a considerable amount so if you can get past him, once people start learning what's going on in the fight it probably won't be much of an issue. In other words, by the time most guilds get there, there will already be plenty of guides for it and if you can get past a much harder boss beforehand, your guild probably won't need the 30 attempts to down it. I honestly think it will just be a bonus loot pinata that rewards guaranteed TF gear for completing the rest of the instance on heroic, so those of us that aren't top 20ish world guilds probably don't have much to be concerned with.

Also, Algalon seems to be more what they are targeting in terms of difficulty, and though he wasn't a cakewalk I would argue that Firefighter, Freya HM, and of course Yogg 0 were all considerably harder than him, and 30 attempts is certainly more lenient than the one hour you had for Algalon.

[fangless]

I think the only limiting factor would be how long it takes to do 12/13 the first week, and if there's enough time to do it twice the next week.

Alt gear, or alt skill shouldn't hinder such an act.

All of THAT aside, too many people are concerned with this mechanic that aren't going to even see the boss let alone ANY heroic T15 boss o_O

[Pilek01]

STOP telling me that they will throw alts at the boss.
You realize that top guilds have alts geared as theyr mains to rotate on different bosses to actualy get the kill?
So they will have to rotate many alts on the 12 bosses before Ra-den, that means not much will be left to kill the 12 bosses a second time in 1 week.
And i also guess that with the Ilvl jump of t15 the 12 hc bosses will last for 2-3 weeks. Ragnaros hc anyone?

[Krayzz]

You're going to tell me that a single boss taking 25 minutes to kill isn't excessive?

No, that's a raid fight that will require strategy and skill. Which most bosses don't require now a days.

[Drilnos]

It really doesn't matter whether people will bring alt raids up to Ra Den or not. The point of the limited attempts is to make each attempt more valuable, to discourage brute force and commitment to muscle memory and encourage active strategy. It does that. The penalty for thirty failed attempts is another run through the entire raid, on characters with different roles and less gear, to reach the same point previously reached. It's the world's longest graveyard run. That's incentive enough.

[Kiea]

So what does this do to the different areas of play?
Top end guilds, raiding all day and competing for world firsts.
Once the first 12 bosses are cleared, they might start on alt raids to get more attempts in, whether this is week one or week 3.

Top end guilds, Raiding 20-30 hours a week not competing for world first (20-100)
Majority of these guilds do not raid insane hours and will most likely not have the time also do the alt raid.

Guilds who are stuck at 12/13H, yet don't raid insanely hardcore, 3-5 days a week.
They will get less burnt out on the boss, as they will spend 1 night on farm and maybe a few attempts on Ra-Den, they then spend the next few days on Ra-Den, but they aint overly concerned and this will keep them not getting burnt out, I was in a guild that ranked world 82th in Firelands, and I can tell you, I HATED Ragnaros towards the end, it was 2-3 hours of farming every week, then the remaining hours wiping on Ragnaros untill he died (400+ attempts I believe)

The more casual guild, yet still plays at a high level, perhaps 6-10 hours a week.
These guilds will most likely be completely unaffected as 30 attempts on Ra-Den who is probably a long fight as Blizzard has grown to love, is gonna take some time, also depending on the runs back to the boss, etc.

Anyone who haven't killed 12/13H.
Explains itself, it wont have any effect on you whatsoever.


I do like the limited attempts, it wont matter for me as I only raid 6 hours a week so even when I do get 12/13H at some point, it will take atleast half the raid just to kill farm bosses.

[Meleti]

No, that's a raid fight that will require strategy and skill. Which most bosses don't require now a days.

Most bosses don't take 10+ minutes because that would be dreadful.