MoP: are we fighting for the wrong team?

[babo7000]

Neither the Mogu or the Zandalari are really evil. They're fairly grey factions.

The Mogu's origin story is quite analogous to a fallen creation story. They suffered from the Curse of the Flesh, began to become mortal. And so forth brought all of their "sins". The Mogu solution is simply different than others. They created a culture were the strong get to rule and the weak are dominated. Its no different than the animal world. So you might be able to call them "barbaric" or "uncivilized". But never really evil.

When mindless animals act Mogu-like to other mindless animals, that is uncivillized. When a sentient race like the Mogu, acts the way they do to other sentient races, that is evil.

[Aquamonkey]

Ok, don't know why you quoted me to say this, but yes, if the Titans created beings for the sole fact to enslaved they are evil.

But did the titans create races to enslave them?

They certainly created them "with a purpose," but they didn't harshly punish those that deviated from their design.

When their creations were affected by the curse of flesh, the titans didn't wipe them out; they let them keep right on living.

And they didn't create their guardians as heartless constructs. All of them have emotions, and at least Thorim proved capable of love (in love with a mortal female vrykul, no less.)

The Titans enslaved the doomguards.

Titan creations on Azeroth have intelligence and were created to do the crap jobs the Titans didn't want to do.

Pigs aren't sentient. That's where I, personally, draw the line. If pigs someday gain sentience then I'd be against using them as food too.

Unless it blows all its money on instant lottery tickets.

[Landin55]

With patch 5.2 coming closer and closer it was a good idea to peek into the Pandaria lore even more.

Basically, what we know is: Mogu were created by Titans to battle an Old God (possibly the one Mantid are worshipping), after fulfilling their mission they were abandoned and clueless what to do. The Mogu clans fought each other without any sense or reason, until Lei Shen decided to look for the source of their existance. He found out they were titanic creations, and with this knowledge and his personal skills he was able to subdue a Titan/Watcher (who the hell knows, Ra-Den) and channel his powers, becoming powerfull emperor. He also learned the secrets of the flesh-shaping and utilized it to create slaves to build his empire.

Now wait.

As far as I'm concerned there are 2 races that are created by the Mogu: Saurok (by flesh-shaping some lizards) and Grummle (by flesh-shaping some troggs). The rest of Pandarian races were already there: Mantid were the enemy of Mogu, Yaungol were the Tauren who just hunted around, Jinyu were the evolved Murlocs, Hozen were... well, a bad joke. But it is said that Mogu had three races to serve them. Saurok, Grummle, and Pandaren.

What do we know about the Pandaren, then? Well, they were slaves of the Mogu. After Lei Shens death they managed to start a rebellion and break free, removing the element of cheap labor from Mogu culture and pretty much stopping their reign. Wait a second, what do we know about the Pandaren BEFORE that? Pretty much nothing.

So, the thing is: Pandaren are a Mogu creation as well. Just like they flesh-shaped lizards to create Saurok, they did this to some pandas and we all see the resoults. Pandaren were not enslaved - it was a race that was created to be slaves. A bit like machines, created to serve, but somehow managing to regain free will and breaking their chains. Similiar to the Terminator series? A bit, I guess.

Let's summ it up. A race of betrayed soldiers, who fought an incredible evil god, was left alone by their masters. After years of being helpless, one of them managed to find out about their origins and get the power they deserved. With this power they created their own servants from nearby lifestock. And those servants were used to build amazing temples, bridges, palaces, and a huge wall that separated the Mogu from their greatest enemies. And, somehow, the slaves revolved, crippling the empire and turning it to dust. Are we working for the rebelled machines to fight off the mankind?

Of course, it's taking things too far. But some facts are quite interesting over here. Are the Mogu really evil, are Pandaren their creations, should we concentrate on helping them?

So just like the titans did with us until the Old Gods freed us? We are freaking "rebelling machines".

[Kaleredar]

The Titans enslaved the doomguards.

I wouldn't exactly take the testimony of a race brainwashed by the burning legion with too much more than a grain of salt.

Titan creations on Azeroth have intelligence and were created to do the crap jobs the Titans didn't want to do.

The earthen, tol'vir, watchers, giants, and mechagnomes don't seem to really mind going about their jobs. Some of the Vrykul willingly stayed loyal to the Titans even after the curse of flesh (the ones that didn't joined the Lich King)

[Landin55]

The Titans enslaved the doomguards.

Titan creations on Azeroth have intelligence and were created to do the crap jobs the Titans didn't want to do.


Unless it blows all its money on instant lottery tickets.

That's still kind of iffy.......It seems like some have intelligence while others are in fact just machines. Also great reference.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 04:27 AM ----------

I wouldn't exactly take for word the testimony of a race brainwashed by the burning legion with too much more than a grain of salt.



The earthen, tol'vir, watchers, giants, and mechagnomes don't seem to really mind going about their jobs. Some of the Vrykul willingly stayed loyal to the Titans even after the curse of flesh (the ones that didn't joined the Lich King)

Which ones didn't join the lich king? The only ones I can think of are the ones who left and raised the first humans and the women frost ones under constant titan influence from their watchers.

[BlackwingHecate]

I saw a debate some time ago about this very topic. At the time, it was not known that Mogu were actually Titan creations, it was a suposition we know now is a fact. But under that same suposition, they came to this very conclusion... We are fighting for the wrong side.

Meaning, everything the Mogu do, they do because it is the bidding of the Titans. When we oppose the Mogu, we oppose the Titans.

I believe we will learn more when people get to Ra-den. Because it is strange that constructs would imprison a Watcher... Who knows, maybe the Mogu strayed from their path of servitude to the Titans at some point, or they simply started to malfunction.

EDIT: Also, some more thoughts... Maybe the Titans are not as benevolent as we think they are. After all, they really would destroy the world had Algalon found corruption, not really caring about us.

It's worth noting that the Titans, as they are frequently described ARE NOT a force of good. They represent order and law, and are opposed by the old gods, who are pretty much chaos incarnate. So they may not be benevolent, that's not really the role they were supposed to fill

[Kaleredar]

[/COLOR]Which ones didn't join the lich king? The only ones I can think of are the ones who left and raised the first humans and the women frost ones under constant titan influence from their watchers.

The female vrykul are indeed the ones I'm referring to. I don't know what you mean by "constant titan influence." They seem to revere the watchers of Ulduar (Thorim in particular,) but are far from under their direct control.

[Landin55]

The female vrykul are indeed the ones I'm referring to. I don't know what you mean by "constant titan influence." They seem to revere the watchers of Ulduar (Thorim in particular,) but are far from under their direct control.

Thorim is their lord..... Their whole entire culture is based around trying to become his wife.

[Kaleredar]

Thorim is their lord..... Their whole entire culture is based around trying to become his wife.

Yes, but it's something they've constructed and willingly participate in.


Thorim probably goes along with it because... he gets free tail out of it.

Which itself is another interesting point; the titans created their watchers with the ability to love.

[Landin55]

Yes, but it's something they've constructed and willingly participate in.


Thorim probably goes along with it because... he gets free tail out of it.

Which itself is another interesting point; the titans created their watchers with the ability to love.

Or they gained it. Curse of flesh!

[Xeraxis]

Don't Pandaren predate the Titans, if so doesn't that blow the OPs theory all to hell?

[Kaleredar]

Or they gained it. Curse of flesh!

The earthen seem to have personalities unto themselves, and they are curse-of-flesh free.

Whether they're capable of love is difficult to say, as Blizzard has been lazy and hasn't put a female Earthen model in game.

[Thage]

Yes, but it's something they've constructed and willingly participate in.


Thorim probably goes along with it because... he gets free tail out of it.

Which itself is another interesting point; the titans created their watchers with the ability to love.

In all honesty, Thorim seems bored by the entire ordeal (likely because his heart already belongs to Sif, furthering the Asgardian allusion among the Watchers of Ulduar).

Anyway, OP (who I keep wanting to call Cody due to your avatar), it's obvious to me that the Mogu lost their way at some point between their creation and when they enslaved the pandaren. Ra-Den's captivity alone is enough to lend weight to my suppositions, given the condition we find him in, hidden away within the Throne of Thunder. Furthermore, nothing can morally justify enslaving a thinking, sentient race and working them to death building monuments to their masters, and becoming outraged when they learn to fight back and rebel is one of the biggest cases of moral myopia I've ever come across in fiction.

As another poster put it, when one tiger behaves to another tiger the way the Mogu behaved toward the pandaren, it's nature at its most savage. When a sentient race behaves to another sentient race the way the Mogu behaved toward the pandaren, it's evil.

[Aquamonkey]

That's still kind of iffy.......It seems like some have intelligence while others are in fact just machines. Also great reference.

It's still pretty evil to go around the universe invading other people's planets, wiping them out, then remaking/reprogramming those worlds/people to suit their idea of "order".

[Kaleredar]

It's still pretty evil to go around the universe invading other people's planets, wiping them out, then remaking/reprogramming those worlds/people to suit their idea of "order".

The only creatures on Azeroth that they attempted to wipe out upon arrival were the old gods and their minions. They didn't seem to care too much about the Tauren, Trolls, or various other creatures living on Azeroth at the time.

[Aquamonkey]

The only creatures on Azeroth that they attempted to wipe out upon arrival were the old gods and their minions. They didn't seem to care too much about the Tauren, Trolls, or various other creatures living on Azeroth at the time.

What exactly were the Old Gods doing that was so evil before the Titans invaded? Fight against each other and maybe stomp on critters in the process? The races we know didn't exist/become sentient until the Titans remade Azeroth and dropped the Well on it.

What's so different between the Old Gods' hour of twilight and the Titans' re-origination? Both would destroy all life on Azeroth. Neither really give a shit about the beings on Azeroth, they just want it to match their ideal and have the kind of life they like.

[Deleted]

Already posted about this. Mogu perceived Saurok and (possibly) Pandaren as animals, since they took a lizard and a panda and accelerated their evolution or something like that. And are not wrong with this perception if we talk in human standards.

What if humans were wrong ?

[Kaleredar]

What exactly were the Old Gods doing that was so evil before the Titans invaded? Fight against each other and maybe stomp on critters in the process? The races we know didn't exist/become sentient until the Titans remade Azeroth and dropped the Well on it.

The trolls existed on Azeroth for quite a long time before the Titans did, as did the Tauren. If the old gods were keeping to themselves, the trolls probably wouldn't have been at war with the various insectoid races for thousands of years.

Seeing as old gods have a penchant for mind raping everything they can, we can pretty well assume that they liked doing it back then too, simply for the hell of doing it. (same reason as why they drove their forces to fight one another)

What's so different between the Old Gods' hour of twilight and the Titans' re-origination? Both would destroy all life on Azeroth. Neither really give a shit about the beings on Azeroth, they just want it to match their ideal and have the kind of life they like.

The premise of the Titan's re-origination, quoting Algalon, was that "it was in the universes' best interest to re-originate the planet" if it were corrupted beyond fixing, likely to stop the old gods from further spreading. Moreover, re-origination holds that Azeroth would be "remade" into a life-supporting planet, not left as a lifeless husk.

The old gods wanted to blow everything up so they could be free to continue their little melee on an ash-strewn world.

[Yunru]

I am fairly sure that panderens evolved from those.

[mordale]

What exactly were the Old Gods doing that was so evil before the Titans invaded? Fight against each other and maybe stomp on critters in the process? The races we know didn't exist/become sentient until the Titans remade Azeroth and dropped the Well on it.

What's so different between the Old Gods' hour of twilight and the Titans' re-origination? Both would destroy all life on Azeroth. Neither really give a shit about the beings on Azeroth, they just want it to match their ideal and have the kind of life they like.

thats sorta the thing in a battle of the gods, were kinda below their notice.

like in marvel civil war the situation had become so overblown thanks to tony stark going der eisenfhurer on every hero who didn't agree with the SHRA that they didn't even check whether or not they were in a populated area before they went on fighting their war.