MoP: are we fighting for the wrong team?

[Kilpi]

I didn't remember that slaves are ok if they are born to slavery and not just enslaved after born free. How did this work again?

[babo7000]

Also it seems that titans doesn't care about life (C.f Algalon), so that's probably the reason why the mogu doesn't attributes any valor in life, but, Kalimdor and Earthern Kingdoms races doesn't think like this, and that's pretty much why we chosed the pandaren camp, also, we encountered pandarens before mogus and got allied with them, it would be tricky to betray them and chose the mogu instead when we encounter them.

Yes and no.

The Titans are essentially gods (i know they are confirmed not to be). If your job was to go around the cosmos bringing order to planets, individual races seem to be insignificant. Its not that they don't care for them, it's that they think in the bigger picture, and in that view, mortals arent all that important. This is why Algalon was so phased; He simply assumed all races on a corrupted planet must themselves be corrupt. When he found out how willing we were to fight for good, he began to think that maybe absolute order isn't always the only option.

Remember, the Titans let native races (Tauren and Trolls), and even compromised creations (Dwarves) survive, because they could be useful in the bigger picture. They made no attempt to enslave them. The Mogu do.

The Mogu aren't gods. There mortals that took on God-like powers, and proceeded to use those powers in the most brutal way possible. They dont think like Gods, they think like mortals. All the Mogu are are spoiled brats who have no way to take care of themselves, and because one smart Mogu told them all unrightfully they deserve more

[Florena]

There's no indication that the pandaren were created by the mogu. While it is 'possible' I think it's more likely the pandaren settled there naturally before Lei Shen rose to power and united the mogu. If the Pandaren were creations of the Mogu, I think that would have come to light by now.

[Aquamonkey]

I might be wrong, but if I'm not mistakes one of the new lore scrolls show that the Pandaren were already here before the Mogu went rogue and decided they wanted to rule everything. The Pandaren were supposed to be the rulers of the continent according to Titan design (hence Pandaria, not "Moguraria"), but years after the Titans went silent the Mogu decided that panda was what was for dinner.

Yes, because what something is named totally indicates that... The Orcs would like to talk to you about Draenor.

[Okacz]

The Mogu aren't gods. There mortals that took on God-like powers, and proceeded to use those powers in the most brutal way possible. They dont think like Gods, they think like mortals. All the Mogu are are spoiled brats who have no way to take care of themselves, and because one smart Mogu told them all unrightfully they deserve more

In fact I kinda imagine how was it when Lei Shen realised who they were for the first time. Realised that all those mindlessly fighting clans were once a well organized legion battling evil. And, that after their purpose was done, they were just left there.

After writing that I wanna to compare this to what Mogu did to Saurok and (my theory) Pandaren. In my opinion, Mogu acted like us - took an animal and evolved it, so it could serve them better. Just like we do with wolves, making them dogs, but instead of flsh-shaping we used thousands of years of evolution. In my opinion then, Mogu slavery of Saurok was just as evil as Human slavery of Dogs.

And now Titans. What did they do? They created living, feeling creatures and used them as a legion to battle Old Gods. And then... they just abandoned them. Their purpose is done, let them die out or do whatever they want. Now THATS douchebaggery. Not poining out that only two beings directly connected to the Titans we meet, Algalon and Ra-Den, are here to pretty much destroy us and everything around us just because. And need to get their asses served to them to finally say "okay, you know what, this whole Azeroth destroying idea... yeah, it was just a joke. We're cool, right?".

[Deleted]

I don't think WoW has ever been "fighting for the good side". More like "fighting for one's own survival". If Pandaren is the race that allies with us to stay alive on this new continent, so be it.

[Florena]

Any would be gray morality for the mogu is tainted from my viewpoint because of how comic book evil they act. Delighting in torture and pain, capturing the spirits of the fallen pandaren, looking down on their allies even after the Zandalari ressurect Lei Shen. Forcing the pandaren into brutal slavery. The Alliance quests in Krasarang suggest that the Mogu sacrificed slaves to lengthen their own lives. (Horde side might too, haven't done those yet. ) Any supposed redeeming qualities they might have had because of wanting to fulfill the work of the titans is lost amidst a sea of evil and suffering. The mogu we encounter in game don't act morally gray. They act evil.

[Theendgamelv3]

With patch 5.2 coming closer and closer it was a good idea to peek into the Pandaria lore even more.

Basically, what we know is: Mogu were created by Titans to battle an Old God (possibly the one Mantid are worshipping), after fulfilling their mission they were abandoned and clueless what to do. The Mogu clans fought each other without any sense or reason, until Lei Shen decided to look for the source of their existance. He found out they were titanic creations, and with this knowledge and his personal skills he was able to subdue a Titan/Watcher (who the hell knows, Ra-Den) and channel his powers, becoming powerfull emperor. He also learned the secrets of the flesh-shaping and utilized it to create slaves to build his empire.

Now wait.

As far as I'm concerned there are 2 races that are created by the Mogu: Saurok (by flesh-shaping some lizards) and Grummle (by flesh-shaping some troggs). The rest of Pandarian races were already there: Mantid were the enemy of Mogu, Yaungol were the Tauren who just hunted around, Jinyu were the evolved Murlocs, Hozen were... well, a bad joke. But it is said that Mogu had three races to serve them. Saurok, Grummle, and Pandaren.

What do we know about the Pandaren, then? Well, they were slaves of the Mogu. After Lei Shens death they managed to start a rebellion and break free, removing the element of cheap labor from Mogu culture and pretty much stopping their reign. Wait a second, what do we know about the Pandaren BEFORE that? Pretty much nothing.

So, the thing is: Pandaren are a Mogu creation as well. Just like they flesh-shaped lizards to create Saurok, they did this to some pandas and we all see the resoults. Pandaren were not enslaved - it was a race that was created to be slaves. A bit like machines, created to serve, but somehow managing to regain free will and breaking their chains. Similiar to the Terminator series? A bit, I guess.

Let's summ it up. A race of betrayed soldiers, who fought an incredible evil god, was left alone by their masters. After years of being helpless, one of them managed to find out about their origins and get the power they deserved. With this power they created their own servants from nearby lifestock. And those servants were used to build amazing temples, bridges, palaces, and a huge wall that separated the Mogu from their greatest enemies. And, somehow, the slaves revolved, crippling the empire and turning it to dust. Are we working for the rebelled machines to fight off the mankind?

Of course, it's taking things too far. But some facts are quite interesting over here. Are the Mogu really evil, are Pandaren their creations, should we concentrate on helping them?

Maybe there is no wrong team at all. If you have old gods who want to kill you, well you fight them. If you have a race of creatures who have a mega superiority complex and want to make you their slaves, you fight them. No wrong team here at all. Perhaps if there was a "enlighten" Mogu who sees the follies of their race, that would be different. You say that the human's are just as evil as Mogu because we domesticated the dog aka made the dog our slave. First off, it is unclear how the domestication of the dog came to be. Secondly there has to be intent to make dogs into a beast of burden. The Mogu if they made the Pandaren made them for one reason, to make them their slaves. Also dogs aren't the same as the Pandaren, dogs don't talk, write have a culture etc. The Saurok have shown that they hate being enslaved. On the PTR, there are Mogu with Sauroks and they are chained. If you kill the Mogu, they will become a neutral NPC and attack Mogu. Quite frankly, I wish to see some kind of friendly Sauroks or quests to help free them or at least try to create a understanding. Dogs can't rebel per say or tell humans they hate being with them, animals can't in general. Until you can actually prove that humans domesticated dogs with the intent to make them our slaves, that is the key difference between humans and Mogu.

With all that said, are they evil, IMO once you create a race with intelligence, human like intelligence and they are made just to be slaves then yes. That makes them evil in that regard. They are Lawful Evil if you want to go into a alignment system. I think under the right conditions they can be talked down and become "allies" of the future, lots of stuff needs to happen. At this point there is no true side. One side wants to kill you, the other wants to enslave you. If the enslaving side doesn't want to talk, you gotta fight them.

[Aquamonkey]

With all that said, are they evil, IMO once you create a race with intelligence, human like intelligence and they are made just to be slaves then yes. That makes them evil in that regard. They are Lawful Evil if you want to go into a alignment system.

That makes the Titans evil.

[Rivin]

Already posted about this. Mogu perceived Saurok and (possibly) Pandaren as animals, since they took a lizard and a panda and accelerated their evolution or something like that. And are not wrong with this perception if we talk in human standards.

Yes, we domesticated wolves into dogs. Yes, we've created machines to work for us. Neither of those are a proper comparison. Neither are sentient. Neither had their own society that we brutally destroyed to enslave them.

The pandaren were people before they were enslaved. They had a culture. The mogu killed any pandaren who could read or write until their culture was utterly wiped out. This isn't the equivalent of taming wolves--this is the equivalent of going to Africa and ripping other human beings out of their culture in order to enslave them.

The mogu are evil.

[Okacz]

Yes, we domesticated wolves into dogs. Yes, we've created machines to work for us. Neither of those are a proper comparison. Neither are sentient. Neither had their own society that we brutally destroyed to enslave them.

The pandaren were people before they were enslaved. They had a culture. The mogu killed any pandaren who could read or write until their culture was utterly wiped out. This isn't the equivalent of taming wolves--this is the equivalent of going to Africa and ripping other human beings out of their culture in order to enslave them.

The mogu are evil.

Yep, the thing is my idea is about the fact that the Mogu were, in fact, creators of the Pandaren race. So there would be no culture to destroy.

However, if they created Pandaren, then enslaved them, then ordered them to create a culture and society and THEN destroy it all, just for shits and giggles, I guess we would be facing the most evil being since the Elevator Boss in BWD.

[Rivin]

Yep, the thing is my idea is about the fact that the Mogu were, in fact, creators of the Pandaren race. So there would be no culture to destroy.

However, if they created Pandaren, then enslaved them, then ordered them to create a culture and society and THEN destroy it all, just for shits and giggles, I guess we would be facing the most evil being since the Elevator Boss in BWD.

But we already know that the mogu wiped out the pandaren culture when they enslaved them. Even if the mogu had created the pandaren, they had been left to their own devices long enough to create a society with a distinct enough culture that the mogu had to erase it to prevent an uprising. At that point it no longer mattered who created them--the pandaren were people, not machines.

[Okacz]

But we already know that the mogu wiped out the pandaren culture when they enslaved them. Even if the mogu had created the pandaren, they had been left to their own devices long enough to create a society with a distinct enough culture that the mogu had to erase it to prevent an uprising. At that point it no longer mattered who created them--the pandaren were people, not machines.

The thing is, there are really no clues whatsoever about the existance of Pandaren before the Mogu. There are such about both Hozen and the Jinyu, but Pandaren are strangely missing. And Mogu, with their flesh shaping talents, could create a lizard-man by transforming a lizard. Thus, the idea is that Pandaren may be simply creation of the Mogu, just like Saurok, yet more inteligent than them - so it serves Mogu better.

In such a theory Pandaren society and culture did NOT exist at any way before or during the reign of Mogu. They were Mogushan pets, servants and such. This is why I make the example with humans and wolves/dogs - Mogus did the same thing, making a panda into Pandaren. And, as intelligent creatures without culture, after the fall of the Mogu Empire, they created their culture based entirely on what they knew and helped to build.

I repeat, this is just a theory, based on lack of facts about per-Mogu Pandaren, their resemblence to Saurok in terms of evolution and their overall backstory.

[Rivin]

The thing is, there are really no clues whatsoever about the existance of Pandaren before the Mogu. There are such about both Hozen and the Jinyu, but Pandaren are strangely missing. And Mogu, with their flesh shaping talents, could create a lizard-man by transforming a lizard. Thus, the idea is that Pandaren may be simply creation of the Mogu, just like Saurok, yet more inteligent than them - so it serves Mogu better.

In such a theory Pandaren society and culture did NOT exist at any way before or during the reign of Mogu. They were Mogushan pets, servants and such. This is why I make the example with humans and wolves/dogs - Mogus did the same thing, making a panda into Pandaren. And, as intelligent creatures without culture, after the fall of the Mogu Empire, they created their culture based entirely on what they knew and helped to build.

I repeat, this is just a theory, based on lack of facts about per-Mogu Pandaren, their resemblence to Saurok in terms of evolution and their overall backstory.

Even if the mogu created the pandaren and the whole deal about destroying their culture was made up, it doesn't change my perspective. Enslaving a sentient race is an evil act. The mogu are slavers, and they have no problems with enslaving other people--therefore, they're evil.

[Deleted]

the mogu believe that way they do is a good thing, that they do it the same way the titans did (and prehaps they're doing it far more titan style then we think)
but it might also be the case that their ways are twisted after the titans abonded them.

what ever the case its a case of "point of view" we're helping the shado-pan and horde/alliance and from our point of view were fighting on the good side. which is all that matters story wise.

[Okacz]

Even if the mogu created the pandaren and the whole deal about destroying their culture was made up, it doesn't change my perspective. Enslaving a sentient race is an evil act. The mogu are slavers, and they have no problems with enslaving other people--therefore, they're evil.

Just like humans in Terminator, who created the machines not exactly knowing that they gonna learn, adapt and finally rebel against mankind. In my perspective, Mogu created Pandaren only as servants, so they were supposed to have no feelings or such. Just perfect slaves, go this, do that. But, as we all know, Titan technology and magic is on par with Windows Vista when it comes to errors, so well, the flesh-shaped pandas broke free.

And for me, Pandaren could be just an upgrade of Saurok, created in a similiar manner, but from an advanced life form, therefore being able to fulfill more difficult task. We all see that the Saurok are mindless and such, which can be a clue about what the Mogu tried to achieve with Pandaren.

[Rivin]

Just like humans in Terminator, who created the machines not exactly knowing that they gonna learn, adapt and finally rebel against mankind. In my perspective, Mogu created Pandaren only as servants, so they were supposed to have no feelings or such. Just perfect slaves, go this, do that. But, as we all know, Titan technology and magic is on par with Windows Vista when it comes to errors, so well, the flesh-shaped pandas broke free.

And if they had been emotionless machines (or, hell, even if they'd been happy with their life as slaves) it wouldn't have been an issue. But the pandaren were neither machines or happy, so enslaving them was evil. I don't remember much about the Terminator backstory, but if the machines had human-level sentience and free will then attempting to enslave them would've been wrong as well...but if I'm not mistaken, didn't Skynet attempt to wipe out humanity the instant it achieved sentience?

And for me, Pandaren could be just an upgrade of Saurok, created in a similiar manner, but from an advanced life form, therefore being able to fulfill more difficult task. We all see that the Saurok are mindless and such, which can be a clue about what the Mogu tried to achieve with Pandaren.

The saurok aren't mindless. Both our interactions with them in Pandaria and Lorewalker Cho's story on their past make that clear. They're primitive, but they're sentient.

[Aquamonkey]

And if they had been emotionless machines (or, hell, even if they'd been happy with their life as slaves) it wouldn't have been an issue. But the pandaren were neither machines or happy, so enslaving them was evil. I don't remember much about the Terminator backstory, but if the machines had human-level sentience and free will then attempting to enslave them would've been wrong as well...but if I'm not mistaken, didn't Skynet attempt to wipe out humanity the instant it achieved sentience?

Humans tried to pull the plug when they realized Skynet became sentient. It then targeted humans as a threat.

A better comparison would be Cylons or the machines in The Matrix. They were actual AI slaves that rebelled.

[MrKnubbles]

This is a really good read. It's definitely something to think about now.

[Okacz]

The saurok aren't mindless. Both our interactions with them in Pandaria and Lorewalker Cho's story on their past make that clear. They're primitive, but they're sentient.

Gotta say you got me here, I've just done some reading up and your right.

Anyway, if Mogu created both the Pandaren and the Saurok, it's hard to measure their "evilness" by modern human standards. In the past we used to enslave people just because their skin was different color than the rest, and people were alright with this - they were told that some people were worth less than others, and nobody really questioned this. This was clearly wrong, even evil. It's hard to say how wrong it would be if we in fact created another race to do our bidding. Would that be somehow... less evil? Quite a complex thing.