1. #1
    Dreadlord Goatfish's Avatar
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    On obvious and specific caps

    I got rather bored tonight and was reading through recent blue posts for shits and giggles when I saw this from Daxxarri :

    The problem with allowing players to earn as many points as they want over the course of a week is that there are external pressures which, unfortunately, cause players to feel 'forced' to do the content that way. Caps can help provide some needed structure. Still, this is something we struggle with a lot, where a player with a particular play style wants the game to be structured towards what's convenient for them, which is a reasonable request. But when we change the rules, what was merely convenient for them then becomes the way everyone has to play.

    Capping Valor isn't something we actually expect many players to do, but because there is a cap at all, some will always feel like they must do it every week. If the cap was higher, there would be those who felt like they were being corralled into doing that much more.
    Which leads me into a sort of personal point based off what I know of psychology. I personally believe that the old system of 'caps' used in BC and wrath was far better than their current implementation because the cap wasn't quite so obvious and clear cut. Because of such there wasn't a bright goalpost in sight causing people to want to rush to the finish. This is something easily observed by watching pretty much any race, people always try to go fastest and gain that extra sprint of motivation when they turn the curve and see the last straightaway. This really leads me to a couple questions for you guys:

    When/if you played in BC/Wrath did you feel the need to do every heroic/etc every day to reach the maximum possible cap, or did you settle for what you were comfortable with, with maybe a bit more when you needed gear or were close to getting a piece? I personally only worried about badges when I was close to a piece, and did the raids and dungeons I felt like doing. Because the option was always there to get more though I never felt strapped for anything to do. (aside from one week where I had actually done everything, but then I was just glad it was over)

    Do you feel a difficult to reach cap is better than one that is fairly easy to reach? For some people just making it in to work is their achievement, but I have always been a bit more competitive and never felt satisfied til I finished a hard day. I actually have casual spare jobs I go work at if I get off work early.

    I guess my point is I think Daxx is making an argument for no apparent reason. It doesn't really address the problem in my eyes, which is that the fact there is a cap isn't a problem. I personally believe the problem lies in how it is implemented, and how easy it is to achieve. Taking content away from the game because you think your players might be playing too much isn't really good design. It's not their job to watch after our health, their job is to make a fun game that people can spend years playing and enjoying themselves without feeling held back.

  2. #2
    An interesting thread. I don't have a clear memory on how I felt about caps in earlier expansions. If there was anything in TBC, I'm pretty sure I didn't care, but that's also because I probably didn't know why I should care. I'm pretty confident that I 'capped' in every way possible in both WOTLK and Cata, and that I'd feel bad if I'd miss my daily - my other half was very strict on doing the daily and I'd join him. I was really happy when the change came when you could do "dailies" whenever you wanted in a given week, and still annoyed it's gone (or watered down, to be more accurate).

    I think today's cap is too harsh to attain, especially when you don't even get capped after raiding numerous hours a week (20+). Being ilevel 510, it feels completely silly and stupid to run quite an amount of heroics, scenarios or lfrs to get capped when I have raided so much that week (you won't necessarily kill every boss if you're raiding seriously, but one would think killing the majority ought to get you capped, but noo..). I'd cap no matter how high the cap would be, so if the cap would be 5k valor, I'd be getting 5k valor somehow every week. I guess that answers your question on whether I'd think it's better to have an easy or hard to reach cap.... I play this game purely for raiding with my guild, and do everything necessary to maximize it, but I'd be equally happy if none of that extra existed. Edit: In all honesty, if there'd be no cap.... I'd probably be running heroics and raids etc hours on end until I have all my gear maximized ASAP in the shortest amount of time. Yes, I think caps are a good thing to have.

    I'm still capping though, because I owe it to my guild and fellow raiders. If I'd not be raiding, I'd probably not be bothered. I have no alts that are meaningful to the guild, and I probably capped valor once per alt accidentally (by running many dungeons after hitting 90 for some gear), and never again after.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-03-05 at 02:28 AM.

  3. #3
    I don't hate the caps per-se. What I hate is that you will never get to a point where you no longer need valor, or lesser charms, or any resource, unless you have somehow managed to double upgrade all your mainspec and offspec stuff. I personally hope they don't re-introduce this upgrade system, because I really hate having to constantly run LFR and 5 mans every week to round out my cap. Having to farm these materials every week is really starting to burn me out.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    <snip>
    I guess my question to you then would be: If the cap wasn't a bar on your screen would you feel as compelled to reach it? I know I did hardcore raiding for a while and I didn't even know the cap on badges a week because I just did what I felt like and didn't bother with trying to cap out everything for slight conveniences. Granted with how it is now and getting ilvl with valor it might be a little different, but I still think from a psychology standpoint that people wouldn't try to reach the cap if it wasn't broadly shown.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    I think in BC it was a bit different because nothing was going anywhere. If I miss 750 valor this patch I've lost one upgrade, period. While in BC as long as I had that sunwell badge staff in good time it was fine. There was also the fact that, in 2.4 blizzard didn't cynically keep top players running 5 mans to min-max. It's the players who use to out gear the badge gear to whom are being forced to grind it to stay competitive.

    I've been done with wow for 3 weeks and that's taken me from being one of the most geared paladins in the world to like rank 800th based on those lost upgrades. And that amount, across the course of a tier is not hard to miss if you don't commit to it.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I guess my question to you then would be: If the cap wasn't a bar on your screen would you feel as compelled to reach it? I know I did hardcore raiding for a while and I didn't even know the cap on badges a week because I just did what I felt like and didn't bother with trying to cap out everything for slight conveniences. Granted with how it is now and getting ilvl with valor it might be a little different, but I still think from a psychology standpoint that people wouldn't try to reach the cap if it wasn't broadly shown.
    No. Without a cap people would spam the crap out of heroics for VP so they could double upgrade everything. If it wasn't for the bar I would have spent a great many hours grinding 5 mans in record time to get as much valor as I needed. I would then rinse and repeat every time there was something I can get from valor.

    This is a result of the whole giving the casuals something to strive for i.e. there is so much you have to buy with just VP. While I don't disagree with this mantra I find it really detracts from my enjoyment of the game. Not because I begrudge people the gear, but because I have to invest time to hit my caps every week, else I'm letting the team down. Even if they allowed me to grind it out I would like it alot more. Being able to dedicate a night or a few days to get a few weeks stuff done is great. I can't always hit my caps every week due to work.

    The cap isn't so much the problem in wow, it's the fact that you need 22,500 valor to upgrade all your stuff. let alone buy all the gear. IMO item upgrading, for all items, is a terrible idea. Perhaps for weapons and trinkets this would be a good thing. But for all 15 slots..... No thanks.
    Last edited by Rhyseh; 2013-03-05 at 05:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyseh View Post
    No. Without a cap people would spam the crap out of heroics for VP so they could double upgrade everything. If it wasn't for the bar I would have spent a great many hours grinding 5 mans in record time to get as much valor as I needed. I would then rinse and repeat every time there was something I can get from valor.

    This is a result of the whole giving the casuals something to strive for i.e. there is so much you have to buy with just VP. While I don't disagree with this mantra I find it really detracts from my enjoyment of the game. Not because I begrudge people the gear, but because I have to invest time to hit my caps every week, else I'm letting the team down. Even if they allowed me to grind it out I would like it alot more. Being able to dedicate a night or a few days to get a few weeks stuff done is great. I can't always hit my caps every week due to work.

    The cap isn't so much the problem in wow, it's the fact that you need 22,500 valor to upgrade all your stuff. let alone buy all the gear. IMO item upgrading, for all items, is a terrible idea. Perhaps for weapons and trinkets this would be a good thing. But for all 15 slots..... No thanks.
    My question wasn't so much of if there was a cap or not, only if it was readily seen or not. BC and Wrath both had a cap as well, but the cap was built into the content. Instead of saying "You can ONLY get rewards from this much per week" it used to be "Here is the content, do what you want of it", there was a cap either way, the difference is one of them directly shows your limit and makes it far more obvious. It makes it so that if you don't reach the cap you have it right there telling you that you are missing out, and if you hit the cap you feel it as well because you then know that for the rest of the week nothing more you want to do gives you credit, just bad juju either way. They turned it into a glorified quest where you need to pick up 15 apples a week, which means it is something you want to finish, but after finishing it every week you don't feel good about doing activities that would otherwise get you apples. Instead of the cap on content being the content, the relative cap on content is a bar shown on your screen.

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