T15 "Attainable" BiS list?

[Tauton]

For moonkins, is it possible for someone to do a BiS non heroic list as well as a BiS incl heroic gear, but excluding Ra-dens loot table as I think /very/ few people will be able to kill him, and with a good chunk of our BiS gear comes from him, I feel the 'BiS' featuring all items is tough to follow because whilst it shows the absolute best and that we can do x dps with it, if the gear is nigh on unobtainable, is it useful?

I don't mean to bash the other thread, i think the work done there is fantastic, I am just wondering if the same could be done for a more obtainable list?

[crews]

The problem here is that if it's not a BiS list, then it's just a list of gear. BiS says "if you have every piece of gear on this list, enchanted, gemmed, reforged as follows, you will be as optimized as is possible at this time".

The tier isn't so big, and there isn't so much loot that you can't just kinda eyeball the loot you do have access to. T14 was the same way. There were 16 bosses, and exactly one bracer option. There were two boot options, so you took the highest ilvl one you could get.

[Juvenate]

The problem with BiS lists for this tier is that Thunderforged items completely mess up any proper list you could make. You can always just make a list based on gear of all the same ilvl, but it wouldn't truly be accurate because of the availability and complete randomness of Thunderforged items.

For Resto Druids, for ilvl 522 and Heroic gear you will want to use Haunted Forest gear in ALL slots. However, if you manage to get a non-tier piece of Thunderforged gear that's a higher ilvl chances are it will be better.

[Alzu]

Imagine the work people would have to do just to get your ideal set done? BiS means best in slot, not almost best.

I actually think that most guilds that get far enough to kill heroic Lei Shen, will defeat Ra-den as well. Blizzard stated that it's easier than heroic Lei Shen, it's just different with it's limited attempts.

In the end, you can just follow the heroic/thunderforged BiS list, if you're not raiding at the level where those lists are relevant, quite basic stat priorities are good enough for you and if you're really interested, you can download Wrathcalcs and SimCraft yourself and check how different items affect DPS. They're not that difficult to use.

In fact, as many guilds are 10man and at the moment reaching BiS is very hard because of rng with drops, thunderforged is going to make it even more difficult. That makes the "need" for even more almost-best in slot gear sets.

[Tauton]

Thank you for the answers. I see that thunderforged is the real curved ball here. Re: Alzu/Crews, BiS is best in slot out of the gear available, which if you include all is the total best in slot. If you ignore all heroic items, or ignore all ra-den items, you can still have a Best in Slot gear set, because it's the best of what can be obtained. As I originally said, a best in slot set with 3..4..5 items that are nigh on unobtainable is pretty much a 'this is the max dps we can do' set, rather than a useful 'aim to get these pieces' set. Maybe just take my wording of 'best in slot' with a grain of salt, i'm asking for a gear set that is the best that can be obtained without heroic gear*. A bit long winded! :P

*changed due to next paragraph!

I didn't realise that Ra-den was easier/on par with Lei Shen though, if that's the case then my heroic request is pointless I hope a non-heroic only set can be created, at least

I just personally started to find it tough due to our soft caps and our stat weights changing as our gear changes to get a good idea on what's really better than what at certain points, and with so much gear available as you've said, it's hard to have a 'at my current gear level, item a does infact beat item b" list in my head for when items do infact drop.

p.s. Juvenate, i've briefly skimmed over your website and will definitely be bookmarking it for my offspec, a lovely site

[xtramuscle]

I just personally started to find it tough due to our soft caps and our stat weights changing as our gear changes to get a good idea on what's really better than what at certain points, and with so much gear available as you've said, it's hard to have a 'at my current gear level, item a does infact beat item b" list in my head for when items do infact drop.

Really all you're asking for is the stat weights.. if you're not interested in HC modes, thunderforged gear, or ra-den loot. You're truly only left with tier and off pieces. I haven't looked at the entire tables as some have, but much like Crews said, there surely arn't that many options available.

[Slippykins]

If I get the time, I can make a T14N list, since I do get a lot of requests for that specific one. What it would include:

- All loot up to Lei-Shen on normal.
- Thunderforged versions of gear.
- Any reputation gear that's better than raid gear.

I'm quite a bit busy at the moment trying to organise the T15H BiS list, so I may not get enough time until the second week or so into 5.2 (assuming it comes out this Tuesday). The problem I have with making multiple lists: it gets confusing managing two lists, can be confusing to others when they compare the two, and people often take it as "oh well now you can make my personalised list for me because you did it for this guy." Just for clarification, thunderforged gear should be about a 15% drop rate on normal loot, so you wont see it terribly often, but often enough to be included.

[crews]

I didn't realise that Ra-den was easier/on par with Lei Shi though, if that's the case then my heroic request is pointless I hope a non-heroic only set can be created, at least

Lei Shen, not Lei Shi. Big difference. Also, Lei Shen seems like a fun fight, whereas Lei Shi was stupid.

Just use your head. You know what stats you like (haste/crit) and you know what stats you don't like as much (mastery). Other than trinkets, which I leave up to the math-capable people like Slippykins, you can pretty much tell instantly whether the item you're rolling/bidding/whatever on is better than what you have.

[Deleted]

Normal mode gear for Balance itemization:

BTW I havent done any maths, I just choose the ones with the stats I want...

Head
Cover of the Haunted Forest (Tier) - Token Drop twin Consorts
Spirit/Haste (meta/yellow +180 crit)

Neck
Shado Pan Assault Friendly Reputation Neck

Shoulder
Shoulderwraps of the Haunted Forest (Tier) - Token Drop Iron-Qon
Haste/Crit (red/yellow +120 haste)

Back
Shimmershell Cape - Tortos

Chest
Robes of the Haunted Forest (Tier) - Token Drop Dark Animus
Crit/Haste (red/yellow/blue +180 int)

Wrists
Infinitely Conducting Bracers - Jin'rokh the Breaker

Gloves
Gloves of the Haunted Forest (Tier) - Token Drop Council of Elders
Mastery/Crit (red +60 int)

Waist
Girdle of Night and Day - Twin Consorts
Spirit/Haste (red/yellow +120 spirit)

Legs
Leggings of the Haunted Forest (Tier) - Token Drop Ji-Kun
Haste/Crit (yellow/blue +120 int)

Boots
Sandals of the Starving Eye - Durumu the Forgotten
Spirit/Crit (yellow +60 Spirit)

Rings
Ro'shak's Remembrance - Iron Qon
Crit/Mastery (blue +60 Haste)

Durumu's Captive Eyeball - Durumu the Forgotten
Spirit/Crit (red +60 Spirit)

Trinkets
Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance - Dark Animus
Crit + Int Proc

Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen - Lei Shen
Int + Crit Proc
or
Breath of the Hydra - Margera
Haste + Int Proc

Weapon
Nadagast's Exsanguinator - N/A
Hit/Crit (yellow +60 int)
or
Ritual Dagger of the Mind's Eye - Durumu the Forgotten
Crit/Mastery (blue +60 crit)

Off-Hand
Lei-Shen's Orb of Command - Lei Shen
Crit/Haste (red +60 int)

I havent put much effort into this list, just picked items that fit our need.

Feel free to pick and rip my findings....

[Jibjabb]

Normal mode gear for Balance itemization:

BTW I havent done any maths, I just choose the ones with the stats I want...

Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne is best weapon
Fetish of the Hydra is best offhand
Deadly Glare Cape is best cloak
Resto Tier 15 is best chest
Passionfire Choker is best necklace (could definitely make an argument for Soul Prism of Lei-Shen if all that spirit would be put to use)

Id also take Breath of the Hydra over Cha-Ye's Essence
Everything else was accurate

Thats for 100% normal mode, no thunderforges

[crunk]

i still say its more realistic to see an "attainable" bis list be heroic not including thunderforged. its not going to be that common.

[Deleted]

Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne is best weapon
Fetish of the Hydra is best offhand
Deadly Glare Cape is best cloak
Resto Tier 15 is best chest
Passionfire Choker is best necklace (could definitely make an argument for Soul Prism of Lei-Shen if all that spirit would be put to use)

Id also take Breath of the Hydra over Cha-Ye's Essence

Rod of the Shattered Throne is not the best weapon from what I have found, If Nadagasts weapon does make it onto live then that will be the best weapon by a long way. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96610/na...-exsanguinator.

Fetish of the Hydra again will not be best OH, with the higher amount of spirit and Hit on gear as it is we will find it harder and harder to stay close to the HIT cap so its best at this point to choose items with little / no hit. Therefore the OH from Lie Shen will be a far more optimal choice.

Deadly Glare Cape is best cloak - low ilevel, not best choice... seriously?

Resto T15 is a better choice, I have updated.

Passionfire Choker has more spirit than Crit... whereas the Shado-pan neutral necklace has higher int, more crit and less spirit, again making it a much better option.

Trinkets are for you to decide when the drops come.

[Stommped]

If you ignore all heroic items, or ignore all ra-den items, you can still have a Best in Slot gear set, because it's the best of what can be obtained.

I didn't realise that Ra-den was easier/on par with Lei Shi though, if that's the case then my heroic request is pointless I hope a non-heroic only set can be created, at least

This was mentioned in the actual BIS thread, but first of all Ra-den does not have any unique loot on his table (so far). He drops all the thunderforged gear that can be obtained from the other 12 bosses and that's it. Meaning a piece from Ra-den you also have a chance to get from Jinrokh or Horridon etc.

Also there is no point in speculating about the difficulty of Ra-den either. Most people know by now that just because Blizzard says something doesn't mean it to be true. Going into patch 4.3 they ALL would have said Madness of Deathwing is the last boss and the hardest fight. Well oops, Spine ended up being much, much harder. But if you are worried about being to kill Ra-den then you are probably worried about being able to kill Heroic Lei-Shen, so I guess a normal mode BIS would be ok.

Although I am not sure the list would change all that much other than heroic items becoming normal items. You wouldn't be reaching the 10k bp so you would change all of the Quick gems to Smooth. Slippy can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe he chose any lower item level pieces or non Crit pieces specifically for reaching the 10k bp. Now certainly there is a noticeable difference in the proc chance of a normal Unerring Vision of Lei Shen vs. heroic so perhaps the trinkets would need to be played with as well.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 10:27 AM ----------

Resto T15 is a better choice, I have updated.

Just because you are making a normal mode list doesn't mean you should ignore Thunderforged items. The offset chest is better here since you can get Thunderforged version of it.

[Tauton]

Slippy: Thank you, that sounds wonderful and I understand the potential negatives for it. Hopefully people will see it's a 'normal gear BIS list' and a 'BIS BIS list' and be happy with that and not expect more... I realise that might be asking too much though! As I said, I think the effort you've put into your BIS list is amazing, so to have you say you may create a version for normal modes sounds great.

Crews: Lei-Shi was a mis-type, i've updated my post. Lei-Shen does look very fun, Lei-Shi was just annoying for me as a moonkin!

Stommped: Thanks for your input, very enlightening - I wasn't aware that Ra-Den /only/ dropped Thunderforged versions of previous gear, and am a little embarassed that I didn't pick up on that earlier as that would very much explain why so much of our BIS comes from him... oops

[Jibjabb]

Rod of the Shattered Throne is not the best weapon from what I have found, If Nadagasts weapon does make it onto live then that will be the best weapon by a long way. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96610/na...-exsanguinator.

Fetish of the Hydra again will not be best OH, with the higher amount of spirit and Hit on gear as it is we will find it harder and harder to stay close to the HIT cap so its best at this point to choose items with little / no hit. Therefore the OH from Lie Shen will be a far more optimal choice.

Deadly Glare Cape is best cloak - low ilevel, not best choice... seriously?

Resto T15 is a better choice, I have updated.

Passionfire Choker has more spirit than Crit... whereas the Shado-pan neutral necklace has higher int, more crit and less spirit, again making it a much better option.

Trinkets are for you to decide when the drops come.

Im not sure what you are talking about. Here lets break it down.

When we put our stats into wrathcalcs we get values of 6.19 for INT, 4.33 for SP, 4.1 for CRIT, 3.41 for HAS, 2.61 for MAS. Hit gets put at the same value as Haste because of reforgings. With the correct values it ends up being:

Torall: 48360.19
Nadagast: Doesnt exist
Mind's Eye: 48056.58

Fetish of the Hydra: 10407.56
Le-Shen's Orb of Command: 10363.36

Deadly Glare Cape: 10387.28
Shimmershell Cape: 9339.76 (Actually a lot of cloaks are better than this one, included Constantly Accelerating Cloak, Dreamweaver Drape, and Drape of Booming Nights)

Passionfire Choker: 10454.42 (Soul Prism is technically higher if all the excess Spirit can be put to use)
Mender's Battletags: 9373.82 (Once again a lot of choices are better than this one)

All of these items are fully gemmed and reforged for the highest DPS benefit.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 11:32 PM ----------

This was mentioned in the actual BIS thread, but first of all Ra-den does not have any unique loot on his table (so far). He drops all the thunderforged gear that can be obtained from the other 12 bosses and that's it. Meaning a piece from Ra-den you also have a chance to get from Jinrokh or Horridon etc.

Ummm no he doesnt. His loot table is unique and different from that of the other bosses. You can even look at the BIS list for that items that are listed as dropping of Ra-Den. They dont exist on any other bosses loot table

[Stommped]

Ummm no he doesnt. His loot table is unique and different from that of the other bosses. You can even look at the BIS list for that items that are listed as dropping of Ra-Den. They dont exist on any other bosses loot table

wowdb definitely showed The Robes of Contagious Time dropping off Dark Animus cause I remember thinking how shitty that would be, but you're right it doesn't any more. Lot of people thought 40+ unique items on a boss didn't make sense but I guess that's what they want to do.

[Jibjabb]

Side note: My math has the Resto Tier 15 chest STILL being better than any thunderforged versions of other normal mode chests.

It also worth noting however that a (TF) Anima-Ringed Fingers paired with a T15 Balance Chest is in fact better on its own than using a T15 Resto Chest with T15 Balance Gloves, only if all that excess Hit can be put to use and I'm not sure that it will be. Since it will end up being 1449 Hit more than the other combination after reforges. Its much safer to just use the tier off-piece.

With the nerf to Unerring Vision its being thrown around that Cha-Ye + Breath of the Hydra will be a better combination. I dont have pure math to back this up so its only speculation til heard otherwise.

[Slippykins]

I'm still not doing a list yet, but for comparisons sake, the chest options:

bT15 vs. rT15 vs. TF option (this includes reforges and gems)

	bT15	TF option	rT15
Int	1578	1688	1578
C/H/S	2028	2518	2678
Mastery	579	0	0

.... which reduces down to:

	bT15	TF option	rT15
Int	0	110	0
C/H/S	0	490	650
Mastery	579	0	0

From here, it is easy to see that TF option > bT15, purely because if we were to say 1 int = 1 crit (which is surely does not), 490+110=600 > 579. Therefore we can disregard bT15 as the best option.

This same logic applies to rT15. The TF option has base 490 C/H/S, so let's do some more subtracting. TF option vs. rT15 = 110 int vs. 160 C/H/S. If we are to take your earlier values, Jibjabb, of Int be roughly equal to 1.5 Crit, we have 165 vs. 160. Therefore, they are very close options for normal mode, but the TF option is the sure winner.

**note: I only took the best of the Thunderforged gear that was on wowdb.com. I didn't try to take any normal piece of loot and bump it up to Thunderforged. The normal TF version of the current chest I have on the T15H BiS list may be the best option if it exists.

[Jibjabb]

Robes of Concussive Shocks are what I used as well, I think one of the main differences is that Crit/Haste/Spirit is clumped together as a singular stat weight here when Crit is superior by itself, ahead of the other 2 and should be ranked on its own.

Resto T15 = 1578 INT 160 SPI 919 HAS 1559 CRIT
Concussive = 1688 INT 612 SPI 1019 HAS 887 CRIT

quick cancellation math you get
Resto T15 = 672 CRIT
Concussive = 110 INT 452 SPI 100 HAS

Input stat values
672(4.1) = 2755.2 Resto
110(6.19) + 452(3.41) + 100(3.41) = 2563.22 Concussive

So Resto tier still wins on an individual piece by piece basis. Like I said in the other post though there are technically better combos than Resto Tier Chest + Balance Tier Whatever (I only tested Gloves as that had the largest value difference from the Tier) but because of the excess Spirit it did not seem worthwhile to pursue, for me personally.

[Deleted]

So we realistically want to be aiming for Resto Chest + Balance Head, Shoulders, Gloves, Legs?

It's going to create a conundrum of 'Should I go for the 4p straight away and then hope I will get a second chest later (slim chance)? Or should I have the first chest token and Resto and then wait for 4 other balance drops?' :/

How about the set bonuses? I assume it's not worth it to break the 4pT14 for just one piece and we should wait until we get 2pT15?

As far as trinkets go, I know that maths is very complicated here but based on what I've read so far it should be:
Breath of the Hydra > Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance > Unerring Vision of Lei Shen > Wushoolay's Final Choice > Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault -right?

So Breath and Cha-Ye's would be the two we'd ideally want to be using (Unerring Vision might marginally beat the other two in theory but it's so luck based and so easy not to use optimally, I don't think it's worth it at all).

How bad/good is Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault? I am thinking how to plan spending my Valour and the spirit neck is the obvious choice but pondering now which other pieces to get first.

Everything else was accurate

Durumu's Captive Eyeball is slightly better than Ro'shak's Remembrance, according to my napkin maths. Those are the two rings you want to be using.

Signet of the Shado-Pan Assault maths out for me as not so far behind Ro'shak's and better than the rings from Jin'rokh and Horridon so that's definitely a good use of Valour points.