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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Guilds having kills on both Jin'rokh and Horridon:
    ---------------------------------------------------
    25m guilds: 62%
    10m guilds: 31%
    ---------------------------------------------------

    The problem is that the 25m version is either horribly undertuned, or the 10m version is overtuned. From what I've read in this thread, most 25m guilds just walk in there and kill the boss in a couple of pulls, (nearly) regardless of their gear level. In comparison, the 10m guilds that mostly seem to be killing Horridon are either very well geared, are the alts of very good players, or actually spent way, way more tries trying to down him than their 25m counterparts.

    Whichever it is, the numbers clearly show that the 10m version is considerably more challenging than the 25m one.
    The main issue with Horridon is the damage that poison volley does if its not interrupted correctly. In a 25 man, a mistweaver can dispell all psn debuffs with revival. What you're seeing is probably the trend that 25 man almost always has a monk healer to rely on, while not every 10 man does.
    Also, each set of trolls uses a different class of debuff - Magic, Psn, Disease, Curse. If you don't have a healing setup that can handle all, then it's just tough luck. 25 Man does not have this issue, while 10 man might.

    So the overtuning comes from the issue of scaling the encounter from 25 to 10, due to debuffs I guess.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by meroko View Post
    If you struggle on horridon, there is no chance for you on Council of Elders. That fight is even harder and amplified by about 20.
    Not exactly, Council is much less complex tham horridon realy, number of stuf youre dealling with is actualy alot smaller and the fight gets progressively easier for each troll you down (if you go nuts on Sul and kill him with 1 empower/0 empowers the fight gets waaaaay easier actualy) also you set ppl to do what they need to do and thats that, horridon is chaotic as crap.

    Horri is definetly not properly tunned for normal mode guilds, if you only raid normal modes your gear level would be around 498 or so overall, on that glevel horri will be tricky. And since Jin Rock is basicaly tuned for a party of nacked ppl it makes no sense ot spike the difculty so much on the second fight. And off topic kinda, but god that Horridon trash is crap.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 01:20 PM ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The main issue with Horridon is the damage that poison volley does if its not interrupted correctly. In a 25 man, a mistweaver can dispell all psn debuffs with revival. What you're seeing is probably the trend that 25 man almost always has a monk healer to rely on, while not every 10 man does.
    Also, each set of trolls uses a different class of debuff - Magic, Psn, Disease, Curse. If you don't have a healing setup that can handle all, then it's just tough luck. 25 Man does not have this issue, while 10 man might.

    So the overtuning comes from the issue of scaling the encounter from 25 to 10, due to debuffs I guess.
    This and 10 mans shouldt have to dela with the exact same amoutn of adds a 25 can, it makes very little sense, you have 2.5 times less ppl to controll them on a 10 man.
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-03-07 at 01:21 PM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Whichever it is, the numbers clearly show that the 10m version is considerably more challenging than the 25m one.
    Not really. Amount of less progressed 25m guilds is just a ton lower than 10m guilds.

  4. #244
    Or it shows, that there's more crap 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds?[/QUOTE]
    yeah, like they are crap on this boss only, on the others 10s are more pro lol

    Guilds having kills on both Jin'rokh and Horridon:
    ---------------------------------------------------
    25m guilds: 62%
    10m guilds: 31%
    ---------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]
    Remember that 25m guilds are in minority compared to 10, so if majority of minority managed to kill that boss on 25, and majority of majority failed on 10, it means balancing is bad.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    WoL success rates show 25m about equal or easier than 10m even after Horridon.

    Horridon 25m: 12.2% success rate
    Horridon 10m: 3.7% success rate

    Council 25m: 25.8% success rate
    Council 10m: 4.9% success rate

    Tortos about even.

    Megaera 25m: 26.7% success rate
    Megaera 10m: 5.6% success rate

    Ji-Kun about 5% higher on 10m.

    Durumu about even.

    Primorius about 4% higher on 25m.

    Dark Animus about even.
    What you are seeing there shows that half of the 10 man guilds are just.... guilds that hop in and try to kill some bosses (friends and family guilds) while almost all 25 man guilds take raiding more seriously (no one would organize 25 man group if he wasnt serious about progressing)

    This is the reason why you see about even % of succes rate on later "harder" bosses. Since guilds who got there at this point are pretty serious about raiding from both sizes.

    This is the basic thing that ppl fail to realize before linking % as some sort of evidence of dificulty
    Last edited by Tingol; 2013-03-07 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #246
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Took us 3 pulls to get it down. And we're not that awesome guild (10/16 heroic t14). Didn't feel overtuned at all.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Or it shows, that there's more crap 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds?
    Even if this was true, the difference in kill ratios is way too profound to be explained solely by minor differences between the average skill level of each type of raider (25m and 10m).

    Regardless, we're seeing 62% of the 25m guilds that manage to kill the loot piñata that is Jin'rokh the Breaker also managing to kill Horridon. In comparison, only 31% of the 10 man guilds that have killed Jin'rokh so far have also managed to kill Horridon.

    This means that on 10m the difference between Jin'rokh and Horridon is quite extreme, while for 25m Horridon doesn't seem to be much harder than Jin'rokh, the T15 loot piñata. With such an extreme difference in kill ratios, it is hard to imagine any other explanation than the 10m version of the encounter being much more 'finely' tuned than the 25m one.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post



    This and 10 mans shouldt have to dela with the exact same amoutn of adds a 25 can, it makes very little sense, you have 2.5 times less ppl to controll them on a 10 man.
    I see no issues with that, as long as cast cooldown is delayed enough that you can keep it chain interrupted in a 10 man - basicly, if it casts every 10 secs in 25 then you need 2 dedicated interrupters, so let the CD on its cast be 16 seconds in 10 man so a single person can handle it. HP is scaled for 10 man anyway, amount of adds doesn't matter.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerruss View Post
    Anyone else having trouble with this boss? Damage seems to get outta hand quickly and we can seem to dispel/cure fast enough, havent made it past the ice trolls yet... Any tips would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!
    not that i'm surprised; but come on. the new raid is only two days old and people like you already complain about "overtuned" encounters? it's getting really, really ridiculous with people nowadays. do you need everything served to you on a silver platter? how about you learn how to play? it's really a shame to have such an attitude. maybe it's best for you if you wait until LFR will be unlocked and never set a foot into a real raid again...

  10. #250
    Any 10m guild with similar ilvl to ours (495-500ish) has any tips how they handled the 2nd and 3rd door exactly? I'm seeing a lot of mixed posts, like "singletarget priests!", "nuke spawns, they only have 800k hp!" or even "AoE everything down!"

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    What you are seeing there shows that half of the 10 man guilds are just.... guilds that hop in and try to kill some bosses (friends and family guilds) while almost all 25 man guilds take raiding more seriously (no one would organize 25 man group if he wasnt serious about progressing)

    This is the reason why you see about even % of succes rate on later "harder" bosses. Since guilds who got there at this point are pretty serious about raiding from both sizes.

    This is the basic thing that ppl fail to realize before linking % as some sort of evidence of dificulty
    I edited with the actual percentages. Tortos to Magaera destroys your theory along with the % for the rest of the differences in the later bosses. It's not about dedication, it's a tuning problem.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-03-07 at 01:34 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Even if this was true, the difference in kill ratios is way too profound to be explained solely by minor differences between the average skill level of each type of raider (25m and 10m).
    nope, i think it's exactly this reason. the only (if not all, by far the most) 25m guilds left are the ones that "mean it". serious raiding guilds. on the other hand, there are 10 mans like the one from the original poster of this thread; "LFR raids" who try their luck and get disappointed. you just don't have these guilds in 25m.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Even if this was true, the difference in kill ratios is way too profound to be explained solely by minor differences between the average skill level of each type of raider (25m and 10m).

    Regardless, we're seeing 62% of the 25m guilds that manage to kill the loot piñata that is Jin'rokh the Breaker also managing to kill Horridon. In comparison, only 31% of the 10 man guilds that have killed Jin'rokh so far have also managed to kill Horridon.

    This means that on 10m the difference between Jin'rokh and Horridon is quite extreme, while for 25m Horridon doesn't seem to be much harder than Jin'rokh, the T15 loot piñata. With such an extreme difference in kill ratios, it is hard to imagine any other explanation than the 10m version of the encounter being much more 'finely' tuned than the 25m one.
    Those numbers on first few bosses do not show anything. Numbers on later bosses show it more acurately (at this point at least) go read my post, 2 posts above yours... that is your explanation.

    And no, horridon is also a lot harder on 25 man than jin rokh

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by tamlus View Post
    If anyone has any input that can help we have gotten thought the second set of trolls having a lot of trouble keep hearing its easier in 25man but as of now we are over whelmed with dispells. Any 25mans guilds have tips?
    Its no easier on 25m. We have more potential dispels but more ppl that need them. The poison was just destroying us.

    I am looking for any input as well that may help out here.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    Those numbers on first few bosses do not show anything. Numbers on later bosses show it more acurately (at this point at least) go read my post, 2 posts above yours... that is your explanation.

    And no, horridon is also a lot harder on 25 man than jin rokh
    Here's the full spread:

    Horridon 25m: 12.2%
    Horridon 10m: 3.7%

    Council 25m: 25.8%
    Council 10m: 4.9%

    Tortos about even at 10%.

    Megaera 25m: 26.7%
    Megaera 10m: 5.6%

    Ji-Kun 25m: 9.7%
    Ji-Kun 10m: 14.5% (yes, 10m is higher)

    Durumu about even at 3%.

    Primorius 25m: 13.3%
    Primorius 10m: 9.5%

    Dark Animus about even at 4%.



    EDIT: Even the 10m getting past Tortos (which is pretty difficult for both) get smoked on Megaera by 25m. And you can clearly see some of the later bosses are easier for 25m than Horridon.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-03-07 at 01:43 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #256
    3 shot this boss last night. It's really, really easy. Actually, we got to the last phase with 3 people dead and just cycled tank cooldowns to live. My opinion: people are bad at this game.

  17. #257
    Are any of the adds susceptible to CC? It would be so much nicer if I could, say, get our rogue to sap one of the double venomancer spawn when it comes out so we can focus down the other, or if our mage could drop a ring of frost in front of the frost door.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    Are any of the adds susceptible to CC? It would be so much nicer if I could, say, get our rogue to sap one of the double venomancer spawn when it comes out so we can focus down the other, or if our mage could drop a ring of frost in front of the frost door.
    RoF doesn't work on anything important.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #259
    Make sure interrupters have a focus interrupt macro. When each priest drops down call an interrupter (anybody can do this now) to set them as focus and interrupt them continuously. DPS Effulgent > Priest > Bloodlord (cleave/aoe/multidot as well). Anybody with an interrupt that is not assigned interrupts the effulgent. We didn't bother to dispel any poisons until all the adds were down then everyone that could dispel went through and removed it (me as protpala, resto druid, our only two dispels). I think our max stacks on the poison was 4, and it really should have been lower.

    3rd door have everyone bunch up except horridon tank and move as a group when orbs spawn, lust when dinomancer spawns (you really don't need it at the end as there is very little that can go wrong in P2) to get the door closed asap so you can tidy up the adds. This is the most dangerous point if interrupts are going well simply because there is no aggro table on some of them.

    Council was harder mechanically but again once you have the tactic sorted it's easy to kill too.

    All the fights I've seen so far are essentially "do you have the mechanics figured out" if you do, you can kill it.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Here's the full spread:

    Horridon 25m: 12.2%
    Horridon 10m: 3.7%

    Council 25m: 25.8%
    Council 10m: 4.9%

    Tortos about even at 10%.

    Megaera 25m: 26.7%
    Megaera 10m: 5.6%

    Ji-Kun 25m: 9.7%
    Ji-Kun 10m: 14.5% (yes, 10m is higher)

    Durumu about even at 3%.

    Primorius 25m: 13.3%
    Primorius 10m: 9.5%

    Dark Animus about even at 4%.
    That just shows that tortos is easier on 10 most likely and I assume it is the case since it was troubleing more then other bosses last night (25 man cleared up to ji kun)

    Look you can keep arguing all you want and I dont really care to make "one side" look harder. The fact is that ALL 25 man guilds that survived till now are pretty serious about what they are doing and will have much much higher % of succes than 10 man as there are loads of 10 man guilds out there who as i said are "friedns and family" guilds.

    I raid 25 man only 9h/week and I always clear content (talking about HC), most of the content I clear I do on 10 man as well and I'm not afraid to say that some fights last tier were harder on 10 man in HoF that we did (even though we killed it easier since we had more gear and experiance)

    Bottom line is some fights are always harder on 10 or 25 man and maybe horridon is. but if it is it is 5-7% harder than on 25 and be sure that some fights are harder on 25 man. Difference is not that big

    If you really think about what I'm saying here you will understand that those numbers do not represent the real thing (once again yes it might be slightly more difficult)

    EDIT: I know players from good 10 man guilds on my realm who said the boss is a joke, we said it is joke as well on 25... what could that mean? hmmmm
    Last edited by Tingol; 2013-03-07 at 01:50 PM.

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