1. #3021
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    Your personal gratification for a given tier (or lack thereof) should not be necessarily the same as your view of good or bad game design. For example, does your like (or dislike) of legendary weapons hinge on whether your guild awards you the first one available?

    "I personally got lucky this tier, so the system is good" - not such a compelling argument for keeping it, because it equates a random outcome with overall design effectiveness.

    In a game where we cooperate with other players in an organized team, I'm not in favor of any system where a potentially significant portion of the rewards are restricted to individuals. It's frustrating. The group loot that drops already has enough RNG involved (and even more got introduced with thuder/warforged), but at least the risk pool is shared amongst 25 players. Coins break that up into 25 different risk pools.

    And no, loot from coins is not some pure bonus that Blizzard doesn't balance around. They take it into account as part of the overall "loot income" equation they use when balancing encounters, etc.
    I didn't mean it from a sense of "i got lucky, therefore i am happy" so much as "without this system i'd be pretty boned in dps".

    I've seen so many trinkets and weapons coined that have helped my guild that I'm happy the system is in place.

    You could argue if it didn't exist then everyone would be non the wiser, but it's nice to have something to fall back on when the items you need just won't drop.

  2. #3022
    I'd prefer the same number of items drop overall, but that those that currently drop through coins just drop for the raid instead....and then the guild assigns the loot accordingly. If total drops were the same your guild would still have gotten all those weapons and trinkets, difference being you'd have been able to distribute as you wish for your loot system. Maybe it would have come out the same as the coin gods dictated, but more than likely there would be at least a few places where upgrades could have served the team better if they were awarded to someone else.

    I have no issue with coins on LFR or Flex. The loot and progression there is essentially individual, and coins are really there to help minimize (to a small degree) the RNG there. But they have the opposite effect in organized raiding, they increase the RNG and worsen the distribution (or at a bare minimum do not improve it). When we organize a team for 25-man raiding, i'd like to see the rewards (all of them) as part of the fabric of that system.

  3. #3023
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    I'd prefer the same number of items drop overall, but that those that currently drop through coins just drop for the raid instead....and then the guild assigns the loot accordingly. If total drops were the same your guild would still have gotten all those weapons and trinkets, difference being you'd have been able to distribute as you wish for your loot system. Maybe it would have come out the same as the coin gods dictated, but more than likely there would be at least a few places where upgrades could have served the team better if they were awarded to someone else.

    I have no issue with coins on LFR or Flex. The loot and progression there is essentially individual, and coins are really there to help minimize (to a small degree) the RNG there. But they have the opposite effect in organized raiding, they increase the RNG and worsen the distribution (or at a bare minimum do not improve it). When we organize a team for 25-man raiding, i'd like to see the rewards (all of them) as part of the fabric of that system.
    whats the point in discussing something like this in a thread about destro? make another thread and leave it at that. its nothing more than personal opinions and trust me, in this instance you're in the vast minority.

  4. #3024
    Well the last 2 pages (at least) of this thread are littered with posts about whether people have gotten a drop they wanted or not, so not sure I've really degraded the discussion any further than it already was.

    As far as being in the minority, I find that irrelevant. If someone has a good argument to make as to why the coin system in organized raiding is really good for the game, I'm all ears.

    Happy not to discuss further though. Either way.

  5. #3025
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    Well the last 2 pages (at least) of this thread are littered with posts about whether people have gotten a drop they wanted or not, so not sure I've really degraded the discussion any further than it already was.

    As far as being in the minority, I find that irrelevant. If someone has a good argument to make as to why the coin system in organized raiding is really good for the game, I'm all ears.

    Happy not to discuss further though. Either way.
    trust me, in a 10m organized raid, any chance of getting loot is a welcome one when you can easily go 4+ weeks without getting anything looking remotely like an upgrade from any boss in SoO. either way the outcome will most likely be the same if the coined loot dropped regularly or the way it is now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by evertonbelmontt View Post
    My only problem with bindings (altough it's flex, it's proc rate should remain equal in all wings, right?) is that it doesn't proc with KTT at the begining of the fight, like, NEVER.

    Is it only me?
    for me it differs a lot, like a lot. sometimes it doesnt proc on pull at all, sometimes it procs and my KTT doesnt proc for a couple of secs, and sometimes my ktt and bindings proc the exact same time. personally, i would prefer bindings proccing first and the ktt after a few secs, so that im sure i can get off 2 chaos bolts with all my procs on pull.

  6. #3026
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post


    And no, loot from coins is not some pure bonus that Blizzard doesn't balance around. They take it into account as part of the overall "loot income" equation they use when balancing encounters, etc.
    So, you are saying that Blizzard will reduce your drop chances for loot if you use coins? What?

  7. #3027
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    So, you are saying that Blizzard will reduce your drop chances for loot if you use coins? What?
    That is not what he is saying. Boss progression is balanced around a certain amount of expected gear on players. For that, Blizzard takes into account that people will have slightly more gear than would be available through regular drops, because of coin rolls. That may push the average expected item level of a progression guild up by a fraction. Whether or not that makes a tangible difference to Blizz's number crunching in the end is up for debate, but it's practically certain that they do keep the fact in mind.

  8. #3028
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That is not what he is saying. Boss progression is balanced around a certain amount of expected gear on players. For that, Blizzard takes into account that people will have slightly more gear than would be available through regular drops, because of coin rolls. That may push the average expected item level of a progression guild up by a fraction. Whether or not that makes a tangible difference to Blizz's number crunching in the end is up for debate, but it's practically certain that they do keep the fact in mind.
    Pretty sure it isn't. Did you see the first 9 or 10 bosses go down in like 5 hours this tier?

  9. #3029
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    I just got BBoy normal from garrosh, and I already have KTT and BoI 561. Is it worth it to upgrade this trinket since it sims similar to other trinkets at the same item level ??
    I main spec destro and use demo on farm bosses, I was thinking that is only a dps increase on bosses where I have the ability to time my CBs.

    any thoughts guys

  10. #3030
    BB can be tricky to get a chaosbolt off exactly at 10x stacks....especially when there is a raid hazard at just the wrong time. KTT/PBoI seem to do better for me all things equal. Now for demo BB is far stronger or at least more reliable....doom + 1-2x CD's at 10x stacks of BB is a ton of damage. KTT also kinda sucks for demo since its multistrike only works on damage from the lock not imps or pets. Thus KTT's stronger synergy with gosac destro than demo.

  11. #3031
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    BB can be tricky to get a chaosbolt off exactly at 10x stacks....especially when there is a raid hazard at just the wrong time. KTT/PBoI seem to do better for me all things equal. Now for demo BB is far stronger or at least more reliable....doom + 1-2x CD's at 10x stacks of BB is a ton of damage. KTT also kinda sucks for demo since its multistrike only works on damage from the lock not imps or pets. Thus KTT's stronger synergy with gosac destro than demo.
    thanks i was actually thinking the same thing, but I wanted other people's opinion. I feel that with luck on bosses like Malk I can do insane damage with BBOY trinket, I will try using it with demo then :/ I still dont know on upgrading it yet

  12. #3032
    I am on HC juggernaut and HC Shamans. Any tips for a destroy lock? Any talent preferences? I am using KJC and GoSac. On Juggs I am on bomb rotation.

  13. #3033
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That is not what he is saying. Boss progression is balanced around a certain amount of expected gear on players. For that, Blizzard takes into account that people will have slightly more gear than would be available through regular drops, because of coin rolls. That may push the average expected item level of a progression guild up by a fraction. Whether or not that makes a tangible difference to Blizz's number crunching in the end is up for debate, but it's practically certain that they do keep the fact in mind.
    That doesn't make sense. If this were true, then they would make 25 harder than 10 due to the severe difference in loot acquisition.

  14. #3034
    Quote Originally Posted by traumabrew View Post
    I am on HC juggernaut and HC Shamans. Any tips for a destroy lock? Any talent preferences? I am using KJC and GoSac. On Juggs I am on bomb rotation.
    well for dark shamans hc i would certainly recommend using sacrificial pact, as it basically trivializes iron prison(i think its called) as it is on a 1 min cd. for iron juggernaut hc, its more about survival than anything imo, just make sure you have a few burning embers when siegemode starts so you have for ember tap if you need it.

  15. #3035
    regarding Shamans. passive Unending Resolve (-10%) + Soul Link + Soul Leech is more than enough to save you and leaves more mental capabilities for dodging the tornados. You only need to take damage from the meteors which should always be reduced from a Raid CD. In addition you have a meaty shield from AoE all the blobs. Can't remember falling below 30% on any try.

    This is all for the split tanking strategy. (which I'd recommend with the gear that people currently have)

    For Juggernaut, we outrange the barrage and thus I use AD + GoSac on that fight. There is not that much movement there.
    Last edited by Berthold; 2013-11-20 at 07:31 AM.

  16. #3036
    anyone try out a haste=crit>mastery build? thinking about trying it for hgarrosh attempts

  17. #3037
    Mechagnome Furtylol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weakdots View Post
    anyone try out a haste=crit>mastery build? thinking about trying it for hgarrosh attempts
    Why for Garrosh specifically?

    And it would be awful. Highest you want to go is maybe the immolate 10.2k breakpoint.
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  18. #3038
    What did your Malkorok build look like tonight, Brusalk? Forgive me for assuming, but was it more crit-heavy than usual?

  19. #3039
    Quote Originally Posted by Furtylol View Post
    Why for Garrosh specifically?

    And it would be awful. Highest you want to go is maybe the immolate 10.2k breakpoint.
    not for garrosh specifically. just happen to be on him, thinking of trying it. i never see anyone use a haste=crit>mastery build. was asking if anyone has tried it.

  20. #3040
    Quote Originally Posted by traumabrew View Post
    I am on HC juggernaut and HC Shamans. Any tips for a destroy lock? Any talent preferences? I am using KJC and GoSac. On Juggs I am on bomb rotation.
    For Jug I GoSac Void, KJC, Soul Link.
    During knockback phase, we range. For First knockback we are stacked under bubble. Second knockback I pop 30% HP with Shadow Bulwark and UResolv, 3rd still has Hp buff + HS. I go with added HP buffer (Soul link) since we have enough raid cooldowns I do not feel i need Sac Pact bubble for 3rd knockback. You can switch this up if you are having survivability issues, but chances are if you are having trouble staying alive, others in your raid are already dead.

    Dark Sham Sac Pact for Iron Prison, KJC, Glyph Havoc (debatable)
    I glyph Havoc to allow 4 max buffed Chaos Bolts on pull into the face of the dogs. Downside is its not up every AoE phase for sniping shadowburns to boss but I found I was not able to reliably get off 3 shadowburns (or any sometimes) per cycle anyways, so opted for the stronger opener. Take advantage of the embers AoE will give you from the slimes to funnel CB's into boss. Later into the fight there will be the situation where iron prison and Falling ash will be hitting almost at the same time. Let falling ash hit before you use sac pact or falling as will eat enough of your shield to put you at risk of dieing from iron prison. Tornadoes hurt, a lot. If you get caught in a bad position and get hit, do not be afraid to burn an ember on ember tap.

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