1. #3121
    High Overlord Melian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    With a non bloodlusted pull, doing incinerate -> dark soul -> immolate (boss is pulled) followed by 2 conflags and 3 incinerates, I always manage to get off 2 chaos bolts before Toxic Power and 4 piece fall off. Throw in a bloodlust (or even just if you run M > H > C) and you can refresh immolate with everything up too which I think is decent.

    I don't think people don't care about backdraft, it's just that in a situation where you have such short procs (KTT/BBoY) you really want to squeeze out that second chaos bolt before it falls off. Now if my KTT didn't proc until 5 seconds in or so then I'd throw out a 4th incinerate.
    This is exactly what I ment!
    If everything works out perfect you can apply an Immolate with all buffs too (which results in a value lika 80 in my AffDots). And this is quite awsome as it deals very nice DPS as well as increasing your ember generation (due to high Intellect resulting in high crit rate as well es high tick rate because of LMG). This is why I even "waste" 3 Backdraft stacks for a Chaos Bolt if I could have casted it without, too, but I couldn't have applied Immolate with all buffs after it.

    EDIT:
    I hope my post doesn't sound as weird for a native as it sounds to me after reading through it again...
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  2. #3122
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Why would you use the Glyph of Havoc on that fight? Weapon spawns are up enough for cleaving Incinerates/Immos that the glyph would be a loss.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm assuming you're 25m, so I can't give you tips for solo'ing Engineers in P1. That said, it depends on how much passive AoE you have from other classes. Keep in mind that even if the mobs are at 60% when the star hits, that's still 10% left on all of them to Shadowburn after the star. I'd just let people AoE cleave for increased single target damage (Yourself included) which will probably get them to 60% if 25m health values are anything like 10m health values.

    For later phases there's not much optimization beyond using Immo/Incinerates for Havoc cleave for the single target increase on the weapons.

    I use havoc glyph for that fight because on progress you can get 6x shadowburns on the first wave of adds, and during the 1st transition having 6 havoc charges makes killing the adds in there much faster, getting through that first transistion fast is arguably one of the most important parts of the fight to make sure you are under 25 energy going into p2. We always kill the weapons, dont know how you do it, and with glyphed Havoc I can do 2x chaos bolt on the 1st wep in p2, and then Chaos bolt > 3x shadowburn with havoc on the other weapons. (all but 1 weapon where the cooldown doesnt allow it). Truth be told I could probably go without Glyphed havoc now that 1st transistion is not a problem on farm and the 1st wave of adds die too fast to do 6x sburn anyway most of the time. For progress I would definently take glyphed havoc though. (All the above speaking about 25 man ofc)
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  3. #3123
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Snip
    Cool, thanks.

  4. #3124
    Stood in the Fire Furtylol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    I use havoc glyph for that fight because on progress you can get 6x shadowburns on the first wave of adds, and during the 1st transition having 6 havoc charges makes killing the adds in there much faster, getting through that first transistion fast is arguably one of the most important parts of the fight to make sure you are under 25 energy going into p2. We always kill the weapons, dont know how you do it, and with glyphed Havoc I can do 2x chaos bolt on the 1st wep in p2, and then Chaos bolt > 3x shadowburn with havoc on the other weapons. (all but 1 weapon where the cooldown doesnt allow it). Truth be told I could probably go without Glyphed havoc now that 1st transistion is not a problem on farm and the 1st wave of adds die too fast to do 6x sburn anyway most of the time. For progress I would definently take glyphed havoc though. (All the above speaking about 25 man ofc)
    I can't speak for 25 man but I definitely feel like glyphed Havoc is unnecessary ... I know speaking from our guild's experience moving through P1 on time was almost never an issue and in the grand scheme of things our damage in Phase 2 and Phase 3 felt a lot more like the relevant issue. We don't go out of our way to kill the weapons, but two destro locks running immolate on one or two of them for the increased ember gen plus pretty much using havoc on cooldown (also for increased ember gen) allowed us to put that much more damage into Garrosh. Eventually some of the weapons would be at a state where we could also take advantage of havoc'ing shadowburns onto Garrosh.

    Coming out of the second heartphase and dealing with empowered whirls havoc is great to deal with your add, but given it usually dies in only two shadow burns the glyph is a colossal waste. Following the empowered whirl we'd occasionally have desecrate accidentally dropped in a messy spot, and havoc is once again great for knocking it down to a manageable size while still having a short enough CD to be up for the next whirl (if you get one). Same goes for phase 3.

    Overall I feel that glyph just has very little use outside of phase one — and even then the phase one benefits are relatively minor (if any ... I know my guild isn't restrained enough to allow me 6 shadowburns!). Just my $0.02
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  5. #3125
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    I use havoc glyph for that fight because on progress you can get 6x shadowburns on the first wave of adds, and during the 1st transition having 6 havoc charges makes killing the adds in there much faster, getting through that first transistion fast is arguably one of the most important parts of the fight to make sure you are under 25 energy going into p2. We always kill the weapons, dont know how you do it, and with glyphed Havoc I can do 2x chaos bolt on the 1st wep in p2, and then Chaos bolt > 3x shadowburn with havoc on the other weapons. (all but 1 weapon where the cooldown doesnt allow it). Truth be told I could probably go without Glyphed havoc now that 1st transistion is not a problem on farm and the 1st wave of adds die too fast to do 6x sburn anyway most of the time. For progress I would definently take glyphed havoc though. (All the above speaking about 25 man ofc)
    Guess it's a size difference. Glyphed Havoc would do nothing for me on the first transition as 1 usually gets them low enough with some assistance from other raid members as they run through my group.

  6. #3126
    Hey Brusalk - that's a great thread and i really love it!
    However i have just started playing ranged dps (in this case lock) for the first time and i encountered some troubles - hopefully you can help me out

    1. Why shouldn't i use chaos bolt during backdraft? Is it because of mana regen? Does it still apply to Dark Soul phase?
    2. Do you know if RoF is still good to use in single target rotation?
    3. What addon do you recommend for multiple debuffs ? I have also problem with switching between them as tabbing is sometimes random - any solution to that?

  7. #3127
    Quote Originally Posted by Asasyn View Post
    Hey Brusalk - that's a great thread and i really love it!
    However i have just started playing ranged dps (in this case lock) for the first time and i encountered some troubles - hopefully you can help me out

    1. Why shouldn't i use chaos bolt during backdraft? Is it because of mana regen? Does it still apply to Dark Soul phase?
    2. Do you know if RoF is still good to use in single target rotation?
    3. What addon do you recommend for multiple debuffs ? I have also problem with switching between them as tabbing is sometimes random - any solution to that?
    1. Chaos Bolt is great (partially) as it allows you to generate mana while it's casting (as it costs 0 mana). Backdraft on a Chaos Bolt not only means that you are not getting 3 Incinerates out at faster speed/lower mana cost, but ALSO that you have less time to generate mana while casting the Chaos Bolt. It's somewhat of a double whammy. That said, using backdraft to get a Chaos Bolt out that wouldn't have otherwise been buffed may be an increase, but only under specific circumstances which should be obvious.

    2. Only if you have Lust + Meta or some other equivalently high Haste situation. It's basically an Incinerate that costs a TON more mana, but doesn't GCD cap. It's only real use is in avoiding the GCD cap where your Incinerate would've been under a second.

    3. There's lots of nameplate addons that include debuffs on the unit frames. That's all I really use for debuff tracking nowadays.

  8. #3128
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Guess it's a size difference. Glyphed Havoc would do nothing for me on the first transition as 1 usually gets them low enough with some assistance from other raid members as they run through my group.
    I've never used Havoc glyph on Garrosh either on progression or farm. We had/have so many other AoE pad lovers that they get to 20% too easily and its even hard to SB snipe .

  9. #3129
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    I've never used Havoc glyph on Garrosh either on progression or farm. We had/have so many other AoE pad lovers that they get to 20% too easily and its even hard to SB snipe .
    Like I said, we were strict about our dps not just going full aoe as the boss was kinda a dps check on progress and wasted dps was not something we wanted.
    On farm its definently better without havoc glyph but I think 100% that its better for progress. Me and our other destro lock were always miles ahead on damage on the adds in the 1st transistion from all other classes and I think havoc glyph played a big part in that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Like I said, we were strict about our dps not just going full aoe as the boss was kinda a dps check on progress and wasted dps was not something we wanted.
    On farm its definently better without havoc glyph but I think 100% that its better for progress. Me and our other destro lock were always miles ahead on damage on the adds in the 1st transistion from all other classes and I think havoc glyph played a big part in that.
    Just checked logs and although fight times are different, tactics could be different too, gear levels are different, different RNG ect ect, on my last kill and your last kill I did almost 40% more damage than you did in the first transistion and boss damage was 40 odd million higher. Obviously I have more gear so it could be gear alone but I think anything that gets you even 20% more damage in the first transistion on progress is worth it, so stupid to have "wipe it" just because the boss reached 25 energy or because an extra cast went though because the adds died 2 seconds slower than normaly.

    But I am interested if anyone with closer ilvl (576) who does the fight the same way we do (Monk kiting, no killing adds) if they could provide some evidence for with/without Havoc glyph. Progress logs obviously more valid for comparison but Farm logs good also. After this discussion I think that using havoc glyph on farm is a bad choice and I should have stopped using it a few weeks ago maybe. Not sure though.
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  10. #3130
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    .
    Are you interested in normal or heroic garrosh?

  11. #3131
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcherry View Post
    Are you interested in normal or heroic garrosh?
    I'm quite sure he means heroic
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  12. #3132
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Like I said, we were strict about our dps not just going full aoe as the boss was kinda a dps check on progress and wasted dps was not something we wanted.
    Chris (and anyone else on this atm ) - how do you handle engineers?

    We had our first night of wipes here last night, and decided to send rogues/hunters off for it (copying what we saw in a few vids) - but I don't really understand why they use rogues. Considering what locks bring in terms of cleave during the phase, I don't really want to do it myself either - but I am struggling to find anyone sending what I would think of as the obvious choices (any ranged with a mobility spell and some burst, ideally those who don't bring 90%+ single target while cleaving the first 50% of the adds hp bars)

    Also, any tricks in the different temples?
    Last edited by rijn dael; 2013-11-26 at 11:08 PM.

  13. #3133
    Okay, so tonight i ve got a 2 peaces of loot and decided to sim weights of my stats, i clicked "analyze all stats" in "scaling" tab and it came out as this: http://i.imgur.com/luUzyd9.jpg What did i do wrong? doesn't seem legit to me, haste 30% stronger than mastery? wtf? My armory
    Last edited by Mouzfun; 2013-11-26 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #3134
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    Chris (and anyone else on this atm ) - how do you handle engineers?

    We had our first night of wipes here last night, and decided to send rogues/hunters off for it (copying what we saw in a few vids) - but I don't really understand why they use rogues. Considering what locks bring in terms of cleave during the phase, I don't really want to do it myself either - but I am struggling to find anyone sending what I would think of as the obvious choices (any ranged with a mobility spell and some burst, ideally those who don't bring 90%+ single target while cleaving the first 50% of the adds hp bars)
    Rogues for the mobility. Shadowstep (or Cloak and Dagger ?) and Sprint.
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  15. #3135
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzfun View Post
    Okay, so tonight i ve got a 2 peaces of loot and decided to sim weights of my stats, i clicked "analyze all stats" in "scaling" tab and it came out as this: http://i.imgur.com/luUzyd9.jpg What did i do wrong? doesn't seem legit to me, haste 30% stronger than mastery? wtf? My armory
    Simcraft loves haste anyway, but you're not that far off the immolate breakpoint at 10k, so it will give extra weight to that. At least, that's what I presume is happening.

  16. #3136
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Rogues for the mobility. Shadowstep (or Cloak and Dagger ?) and Sprint.
    Dunno if ours are doing it wrong, but while the rogues do 17-20m to the boss, the hunters do 30-35m - while both classes get about 3-5m in engineer damage per attempt.
    Last edited by rijn dael; 2013-11-27 at 12:59 AM.

  17. #3137
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Just checked logs and although fight times are different, tactics could be different too, gear levels are different, different RNG ect ect, on my last kill and your last kill I did almost 40% more damage than you did in the first transistion and boss damage was 40 odd million higher. Obviously I have more gear so it could be gear alone but I think anything that gets you even 20% more damage in the first transistion on progress is worth it, so stupid to have "wipe it" just because the boss reached 25 energy or because an extra cast went though because the adds died 2 seconds slower than normaly.

    But I am interested if anyone with closer ilvl (576) who does the fight the same way we do (Monk kiting, no killing adds) if they could provide some evidence for with/without Havoc glyph. Progress logs obviously more valid for comparison but Farm logs good also. After this discussion I think that using havoc glyph on farm is a bad choice and I should have stopped using it a few weeks ago maybe. Not sure though.
    We do the monk kite, no add kill strat and I've yet to use Havoc glyph but we've always just went ham with AoE since we have DPS monkey's in the guild so using Havoc glyph would have just been out of the question anyway if you want to take a gander at logs.

  18. #3138
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    Dunno if ours are doing it wrong, but while the rogues do 17-20m to the boss, the hunters do 30-35m - while both classes get about 3-5m in engineer damage per attempt.
    I should have added "My understanding is..." as that's just what I've heard from other raiders about who to send to the engineers
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  19. #3139
    Havoc glyph is nice on progression. I stopped using it after it became farm though. Back when we first killed it, I was on siege engineers so I'd havoc the boss on one of the siege engineer trips so I could funnel 2 chaos bolts in and then use my next havoc to Sburn to the boss as we were entering first intermission. With our strat we needed a specific weapon to get burned down quickly while others just needed to be dotted and slowly whittled down so it was nice there as well. And then the glyph is nice again for when you go right into a p3 push and you want to quickly gain some embers from 6 charges of havoc. A lot of this stuff was relevant for ~565 avg ilevel Garrosh progression, but now everything just dies super fast so there's no point in using the glyph for burst damage. It's probably not even a relevant glyph for warlocks that are working on the boss currently.
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2013-11-27 at 11:16 AM.
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  20. #3140
    I used glyphed Havoc on progress, but we just kill them too fast now to get 6 Shadowburns off

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