1. #1921
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothmeduso View Post
    No worries. You are entitled to do what you want. You can call anything trash because you have that right. I will not get upset at your response to my results. If you refuse to become a better destro lock that is your business. Glad to see you decided to use the trash glyph that I stated would be best for 5.4. Instead of typing insults focus on proving my theory to be wrong and actually contribute something to the forums instead of copying what someone else has said and acting like a child. If there is anyone who want to test my theory feel free to do so and let me know the results so I can compare them to mines. Thank you.
    First of all, if this is not reason enough to get an ignore function on this thread i swear i dont know what will.

    Second, What glyph are you talking about?

    Third, Not one person on this thread has agreed with your theory from what ive read

    Fourth, You have provided absoloutely not a single dote of evidence about anything and its a little bit fucken mind blowing to have someone constantly spew the same crap over and over and over again when everyone disagrees, but sure im gna give you one chance to entertain me with this.

    1 - What gear did you have while testing

    2 - Where did you test

    3 - Have you any Sims / specialised APL's to back this up

    4 - Have you got like a wow-heroes or anything to see if you can actually play the spec in the first place

    5 - What is your conclusion in the mastery vs crit arguement (as literally anyone with a brain will tell you mastery is a ton stronger for on demand damage which is part of the reason destruction is strong in the first place)

    6 - What Crit % do you see on Incin / Conflag / Immolate after 50 or so million damage

    I dno, honestly i can put up with people's opinions but what you do is ram info down people's throats without ever backing it up and it gets really frustrating for me personally.

    Edit - Just after reading that again explain this aswell '10% buff doesn't affect grim of sacrifice it is just a passive buff which means Grim: sac was always the better choice.'
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-09-10 at 07:25 AM.

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  2. #1922
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    First of all, if this is not reason enough to get an ignore function on this thread i swear i dont know what will.

    Second, What glyph are you talking about?

    Third, Not one person on this thread has agreed with your theory from what ive read

    Fourth, You have provided absoloutely not a single dote of evidence about anything and its a little bit fucken mind blowing to have someone constantly spew the same crap over and over and over again when everyone disagrees, but sure im gna give you one chance to entertain me with this.

    1 - What gear did you have while testing

    2 - Where did you test

    3 - Have you any Sims / specialised APL's to back this up

    4 - Have you got like a wow-heroes or anything to see if you can actually play the spec in the first place

    5 - What is your conclusion in the mastery vs crit arguement (as literally anyone with a brain will tell you mastery is a ton stronger for on demand damage which is part of the reason destruction is strong in the first place)

    6 - What Crit % do you see on Incin / Conflag / Immolate after 50 or so million damage

    I dno, honestly i can put up with people's opinions but what you do is ram info down people's throats without ever backing it up and it gets really frustrating for me personally.

    Edit - Just after reading that again explain this aswell '10% buff doesn't affect grim of sacrifice it is just a passive buff which means Grim: sac was always the better choice.'
    Sure I will entertain you for a little bit more. I will by asking you what have you done to contribute? What is your original theory before spewing someone else's? The 10% incinerate buff didn't buff grim: sacrifice. Grim: sacrifice already had a 15% buff to incinerate. The 10% buffed incinerate as a whole meaning with or without grim: sacrifice. If you take away the 15% buff from grim: sacrifice to incinerate it would fall behind the other Grims. Item level doesn't matter when performing tests at a stat weight level. For an example, if i was testing mastery I would reforge everything on gear to mastery that i could and gem all mastery. Then I would test it on the target dummies to see the results. I would then reforge and gem everything to crit, hit the dummies and then write down my results for both. Doing it this way takes intellect out of the equation when trying to see which stat weight will net a higher damage and dps gain. Then I would do crit to a certain level and mastery at a certain level or vice versa. This allows me to see how each stat depend on another. I could go on but because you are hell bent on discrediting me you will fail to see what I did.

    You would know this if you actually theory crafted and provided actual proof of why my theory wouldn't work. That is the simple rule of science my friend, if you want me to be discredited then prove me wrong with PROOF. Proven until proven guilty(doesn't fit the concept but you should get the point)

  3. #1923
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothmeduso View Post
    Sure I will entertain you for a little bit more. I will by asking you what have you done to contribute? What is your original theory before spewing someone else's? The 10% incinerate buff didn't buff grim: sacrifice. Grim: sacrifice already had a 15% buff to incinerate. The 10% buffed incinerate as a whole meaning with or without grim: sacrifice. If you take away the 15% buff from grim: sacrifice to incinerate it would fall behind the other Grims. Item level doesn't matter when performing tests at a stat weight level. For an example, if i was testing mastery I would reforge everything on gear to mastery that i could and gem all mastery. Then I would test it on the target dummies to see the results. I would then reforge and gem everything to crit, hit the dummies and then write down my results for both. Doing it this way takes intellect out of the equation when trying to see which stat weight will net a higher damage and dps gain. Then I would do crit to a certain level and mastery at a certain level or vice versa. This allows me to see how each stat depend on another. I could go on but because you are hell bent on discrediting me you will fail to see what I did.

    You would know this if you actually theory crafted and provided actual proof of why my theory wouldn't work. That is the simple rule of science my friend, if you want me to be discredited then prove me wrong with PROOF. Proven until proven guilty(doesn't fit the concept but you should get the point)
    And with this im out, the best i can wish for you is that you enjoy your ninja l33t way of playing in 5.4 and ill hopefully see you hitting some rank 1's during progress (this is meant with as much scarcasm as i can possibly offer you) Have a nice day.

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  4. #1924
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    The 10% incinerate buff didn't buff grim: sacrifice. Grim: sacrifice already had a 15% buff to incinerate. The 10% buffed incinerate as a whole meaning with or without grim: sacrifice. If you take away the 15% buff from grim: sacrifice to incinerate it would fall behind the other Grims.
    What does that even mean ? That's gibberish

    Your high crit theory aims to have a very high crit percentage during all the fight, but that means you will end up gaining an ember in less than 10 sec, which will in consequence lower A LOT your uptime of the 4pT16, which will defeat your primary goal. Optimally in normal circonstances (no AoE / SB) we should try to gain an ember every 10-11 sec.

    And the fact that you didn't even do any heroic fight in T15 doesn't help taking you seriously.
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  5. #1925
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothmeduso View Post
    You would know this if you actually theory crafted and provided actual proof of why my theory wouldn't work. That is the simple rule of science my friend, if you want me to be discredited then prove me wrong with PROOF. Proven until proven guilty(doesn't fit the concept but you should get the point)
    No that's not how it works, your theory will remain nothing but a theory until it is proven or disproven, however the burden of proof lies on you.

  6. #1926
    I haven't seen a discussion about which trinket will be best for Destruction the following content (or maybe I'm just blind ^^"")
    So I think Bindings will probably one of them because of the increased Critical Dmg. But then I'm uncertain about the second one. Is KTT or BBoY better suited for destruction?

  7. #1927
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    is the glyph of havoc mandatory ?

  8. #1928
    Quote Originally Posted by sster View Post
    is the glyph of havoc mandatory ?
    It will be fight dependent from my understanding. If you can use it on cd (unglyphed) then don't take the glyph. For fights with infrequent add spawns (Maybe something like Thok?) then the glyph would probably be better.

  9. #1929
    So Immerseus in destro: yay or nay? Can we at least expect not to be trounced by affli/demono on this fight?
    I think I'll go as destro to see whether my dps ranking in the roster tanks or not.

  10. #1930
    The way I look at secondary stats for destro are as follows:
    *You can have more haste than what GCD caps backdraft under LMG proc...its just far less valuable.
    *You can stack crit but the T16 set bonus and old fashioned crit diminishing returns waters that down.
    *You can stack mastery to make the fewer embers we have spend larger and it never caps or hits diminishing returns.

    Destro's niche where it might be competitive is in shadowburn sniping w' havoc cleave. That is heavily propped up by mastery whereas crit's ember generation bonus is less valuable when we get embers from shadowburn's sniping. Regardless of your views nobody can deny that past the point where you are generating an ember faster than the T16 set bonus crit's value diminishes relative to other things. Since haste is already diminished that leaves mastery.

  11. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothmeduso View Post
    The 10% incinerate buff didn't buff grim: sacrifice. Grim: sacrifice already had a 15% buff to incinerate. The 10% buffed incinerate as a whole meaning with or without grim: sacrifice. If you take away the 15% buff from grim: sacrifice to incinerate it would fall behind the other Grims.
    C'mon, seriously? We didn't disprove your theories enough in the "Warlock patch 5.4 discussion" thread? You're still going on about that 100% crit shit?

    The 10% buff to Incinerate DOES buff Grim:Sac because Grim:Sac just causes Incinerate (along with other spells) to hit 15% harder. If Incinerate hits 10% harder because of the patch, then you give it the 15% extra damage from GoSac on top of that, it increases the value of GoSac slightly. Here's some examples:

    5.3: Incinerate hits for 100k. Grim:Sac Incinerate hits for 115k. (15% harder = 15k more damage).
    5.4: Incinerate hits for 110k. Grim:Sac Incinerate hits for 126.5k. (15% harder = 16.5k more damage).

    From that VERY basic math you can see that Grim:Sac increases in value because Incinerates hit harder ALL the time (due to the buff that came literally 12H before realms went down).

    Trying to argue that it makes no change in the value of GoSac is just stupid. And it makes you look like you have no idea whatsoever about what you're talking about, which makes people think your 100% crit theory is just as clueless even more than they already do.


    Also, I'm going to quote myself from the other forum, because it was exactly at that moment you stopped defending your 100% crit theory, so I'm hoping it'll have the same effect again this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneBusby View Post
    Reaching over 100% crit rating makes people uncomfortable for good reason, because it's purely wasted stats.

    I can't think of the maths right now, being that it's 1:30am, but it's similar to an inverse of the probability of seeing an item drop. For example a mount that has 3% drop rate always has a 3% chance to drop, but the probability of you seeing said mount in X number of kills increases each time you kill the boss. (Better explained here).

    Imagine it coming from the other end of the spectrum. If you have 80% crit, getting up to 90% from that point is less valuable than going for a different stat. It would change you from getting 8 out of 10 spells as crits into getting 9/10 spells as crits, but what if you had that 10% worth of stats placed into say, mastery, which would increase the damage of all 8 of those crits, and both of the 2 non-crits instead, rather than just buffing 1 of the spells from a non-crit into a crit. The higher your crit gets, the less valuable it becomes. Once you get above 100% crit, you're wasting stats, because you're already getting 10/10 spells as crits, anything higher than that doesn't somehow magically make you get 11/10 spells as crits, because that's not possible.

    Plus, the amount of time you sit near 100% crit is so minimal, it doesn't mean that your incinerates are giving double the ember regen that they normally would, it works out to a far lower AVERAGE amount of crit, which is what you would base the number of embers gained off of.
    TL;DR: Crit essentially has diminishing returns. Mastery doesn't. Please stop trying to push this theory on people. If you REALLY, TRULY believe it'll be as superior as you claim, go, play it, and come back with links to your top 10 Destro Lock rankings on WoL. (Shit, I think I'd be impressed if you even made the top 150, which is the ranking limit). THEN, and only then, will we even REMOTELY consider what you say MIGHT be viable.


    Also, completely unrelated, but just because I want to rub it in Brusalk's face and brag about it.



    (See #144 and #146)
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-10 at 02:17 PM.

  12. #1932
    5.4 Incinerate hits for 110% 5.3 Incinerate With any kind off grimmore.
    the buff is for all incinerate casts

    GOSAC benefits 1.5% only for incinerate casts

    i have this info only ofr reading the tread and changelogs.
    help me if i dont understand.

  13. #1933
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    And with this im out, the best i can wish for you is that you enjoy your ninja l33t way of playing in 5.4 and ill hopefully see you hitting some rank 1's during progress (this is meant with as much scarcasm as i can possibly offer you) Have a nice day.
    no need for all the hate guys, he tested it

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  14. #1934
    Jeeze guys calm down.


    With the buff to Incinerate, Fel Flame is around 1k ahead of Incinerate w/o Backdraft in T15H gear. You can basically use what you want. Personally I'll be using Fel Flame as instant casts are better than casts.


    I also don't think a 10% buff to Incinerate will magically make Sac significantly better than Sup/Serv. They should stay around even.


    With the Incinerate buff I'm finding that Mastery and Crit are both basically the exact same stat for single target w/o t16 set bonuses. With the bonuses I'm pretty sure Mastery will pull ahead after a certain amount of Crit means we generate embers faster than the ICD. (Which is especially possible with Fel Flame filler) Not to mention that Mastery outpaces Crit once you get additional targets extremely quickly.

  15. #1935
    Ranking as destro should be easy since almost nobody will be playing it for progression guilds. Sort of like those hunters who went MM the last couple weeks of the patch to get top ranks since it was a functionally unused spec.

    Seriously, I am with Brusalk in terms of the theorycraft on destro single target. If I were playing destro (rolling aff MS/demo OS for now) I'd go for FF when not backdrafted and incinerate otherwise. For burst situations I'd go straight FF and use backdraft to asap 2x chaosbolts. Still not sure on grimoires for destro. I'd *like* gosac to be viable but that probably needs more testing. Since destro's niche is shadowburn sniping that plays into gosac's strength.

  16. #1936
    Stood in the Fire ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Jeeze guys calm down.


    With the buff to Incinerate, Fel Flame is around 1k ahead of Incinerate w/o Backdraft in T15H gear. You can basically use what you want. Personally I'll be using Fel Flame as instant casts are better than casts.


    I also don't think a 10% buff to Incinerate will magically make Sac significantly better than Sup/Serv. They should stay around even.


    With the Incinerate buff I'm finding that Mastery and Crit are both basically the exact same stat for single target w/o t16 set bonuses. With the bonuses I'm pretty sure Mastery will pull ahead after a certain amount of Crit means we generate embers faster than the ICD. (Which is especially possible with Fel Flame filler) Not to mention that Mastery outpaces Crit once you get additional targets extremely quickly.
    NO BRUSALK I WILL NOT CALM DOWN. DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO. YOU AIN'T THE BOSS OF ME!!1!one!!

    :P

    On a serious note. When you say "You can basically use what you want", at what point does Fel Flame trump Incinerate and vice versa? And if we're currently stuck with super high haste with the gear we got from ToT (and can't get any lower by reforging out of it all), at what haste levels would Fel Flame be superior to Incinerate (as in, how low do we need to get for it to be superior)? And does RoF still pull ahead of Incinerate in high haste situations, or did the 10% buff fix that (at least for the most part)?

  17. #1937
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Jeeze guys calm down.


    With the buff to Incinerate, Fel Flame is around 1k ahead of Incinerate w/o Backdraft in T15H gear. You can basically use what you want. Personally I'll be using Fel Flame as instant casts are better than casts.


    I also don't think a 10% buff to Incinerate will magically make Sac significantly better than Sup/Serv. They should stay around even.


    With the Incinerate buff I'm finding that Mastery and Crit are both basically the exact same stat for single target w/o t16 set bonuses. With the bonuses I'm pretty sure Mastery will pull ahead after a certain amount of Crit means we generate embers faster than the ICD. (Which is especially possible with Fel Flame filler) Not to mention that Mastery outpaces Crit once you get additional targets extremely quickly.
    Our tests seem to provide similar information, glad you could clarify some of the findings that I have found. I also thank you for testing my theory.

  18. #1938
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothmeduso View Post
    Our tests seem to provide similar information, glad you could clarify some of the findings that I have found. I also thank you for testing my theory.
    I'm starting to think this guy is a masterful troll.

    You spent the last 2 pages saying crit was better than mastery. Now Brusalk comes in and says crit is equal in single target, worse in multi-target (hmm, wonder what stat we should choose?) and you say that's what you've been saying all along?

    We is a relative term, my test show that critical out weighs mastery, so crit will be my main stat. The 10% buff on top of this makes it out weight it even more long live destro being competitive once again.
    Crit value is for all spells to crit most of the time it is more important than mastery due to emeber regen, and double damage of normal spell hits, whether we hit the 100% crit threshold that you have set is irrelevant. New tests with 50% crit and trinkets with intellect procs show an increase in damage. You are basing your theory on the fact that when crit hits 100% for a couple of seconds of the fight more important than having sustained critical strike damage from all spells. This is why you see destro being so far behind the other two specs. If you open your mind you will understand the significance of getting critical strikes with spells half the times or more.

    In my test mastery did not equal or apply more damage than the critical strike of all spells. This is simply understandable because a critical strike is 100% more damage for the selected spell, for an example if an incinerate hits for 150k regular it will crit for 300k or more. No amount of mastery possible will allow this to happen(in current gear). Mastery however isn't useless it is very close the crit and is the second most valuable stat between crit,haste, and mastery. If you do not crit while prioritizing mastery, the crit that you are saying is our second best secondary stat is useless. To compensate for this loss crit should be atleast 50%+ so you can get the most out of mastery. Chaosbolt is our strongest spell but we have other spells that we use to sustain our dps. In order to sustain dps our other spells have to hit for higher damage. The highest damage one can achieve at the moment is critical hits+mastery which further increases the value of getting a critical strike.

    The green fire doesn't set us apart from a fire mages, because fire is our element of damage as is it is for mages. Green fire is nothing, the original locks such as myself deserve more after the doom gaurd ritual and Dreadsteed quests we had to endure.
    How anyone would have a rational conversation about theorycrafting with you is beyond me... You criticized someone for not contributing. Your lack of real testing with documentation and proof while blindly stating your way is correct is not just a lack of contribution, it is detrimental to the thread.

  19. #1939
    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneBusby View Post
    NO BRUSALK I WILL NOT CALM DOWN. DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO. YOU AIN'T THE BOSS OF ME!!1!one!!

    :P

    On a serious note. When you say "You can basically use what you want", at what point does Fel Flame trump Incinerate and vice versa? And if we're currently stuck with super high haste with the gear we got from ToT (and can't get any lower by reforging out of it all), at what haste levels would Fel Flame be superior to Incinerate (as in, how low do we need to get for it to be superior)? And does RoF still pull ahead of Incinerate in high haste situations, or did the 10% buff fix that (at least for the most part)?
    In general, it seems that you basically need Backdraft or Hero levels of Haste for Incinerate to be better than Fel Flame without Backdraft up. Fel Flame is basically better with a low to moderate amount of Haste. A total guestimate would be 10k Haste for you to use Incinerate over Fel Flame as your filler.

  20. #1940
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazgoth View Post
    I'm starting to think this guy is a masterful troll.

    You spent the last 2 pages saying crit was better than mastery. Now Brusalk comes in and says crit is equal in single target, worse in multi-target (hmm, wonder what stat we should choose?) and you say that's what you've been saying all along?





    How anyone would have a rational conversation about theorycrafting with you is beyond me... You criticized someone for not contributing. Your lack of real testing with documentation and proof while blindly stating your way is correct is not just a lack of contribution, it is detrimental to the thread.
    You left out the point that Brusalik also stated, that crit to a point then it will be mastery in which i have been saying all along. If you believe me to be a troll you are entitled to your opinion. That still doesn't change the fact that his results are similar to mine. Brusalik what do you have to say on this topic?

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