Thunderforged: 25 man vs 10 man

[imoom]

your argument that 25man takes longer time to gear is just simply wrong. it would take longer if they dropped same amount of items obviously. But even when not considering different TF drop rates, 25man do gear faster then 10man, and having this extreme high TF droprate in 25, (40%, where we had 5% in 10man) is just a kick in the nut to the majority of the raiders in this game, (majority is 10man).

[Dracodraco]

I believe in 25 man every boss drops 2 thunderforged items. That's afaik from what we have killed.

Sadly not. It's more chance than anything, but a 30-40% droprate DOES equal to 2x thunderforged per boss.

Also, just because 10 mans consist of players who do not want to reroll to get a better setup for their raid and waste less items, does not mean that they gear up slower - it just means you're taking "bad" setups.

[Deleted]

well, there needs to be some benefit for running 25m raids. so there you go.

[Tehstool]

Sadly not. It's more chance than anything, but a 30-40% droprate DOES equal to 2x thunderforged per boss.

Also, just because 10 mans consist of players who do not want to reroll to get a better setup for their raid and waste less items, does not mean that they gear up slower - it just means you're taking "bad" setups.

Ah, my bad we must've just been extremely lucky then.

[Deleted]

Sadly not. It's more chance than anything, but a 30-40% droprate DOES equal to 2x thunderforged per boss.

Also, just because 10 mans consist of players who do not want to reroll to get a better setup for their raid and waste less items, does not mean that they gear up slower - it just means you're taking "bad" setups.

That may be the case for some 10 man guilds or even a lot of them. But you can't really do anything about RNG, when it comes to loot. My own guild has always had an even spread of classes when it comes to tokens. We aren't running with 2 plate tanks, or 2 plate dps or 2 Resto Druids etc. But when certain items never drop like no Agi leather belt has dropped from either Normal or Heroic in ToES or when nothing but Protectors tokens drop for weeks on the same boss, it's not about setup, it's about shit RNG.

When you get that same item from the same boss 3 weeks in a row, what do you suggest that 10 man guilds do? Cause in cases like this, it has nothing to do about setup. When each boss only drops 2 items, there's not really much you can do tbh.

[Viggers]

25man, 2 bosses killed.

2 TF items from 1st boss, 4 TF items from 2nd boss.

i wasnt expecting it to be that high in 25man, but im hoping this will persuade people to come back to 25!

[Dracodraco]

That may be the case for some 10 man guilds or even a lot of them. But you can't really do anything about RNG, when it comes to loot. My own guild has always had an even spread of classes when it comes to tokens. We aren't running with 2 plate tanks, or 2 plate dps or 2 Resto Druids etc. But when certain items never drop like no Agi leather belt has dropped from either Normal or Heroic in ToES or when nothing but Protectors tokens drop for weeks on the same boss, it's not about setup, it's about shit RNG.

When you get that same item from the same boss 3 weeks in a row, what do you suggest that 10 man guilds do? Cause in cases like this, it has nothing to do about setup. When each boss only drops 2 items, there's not really much you can do tbh.

We never saw the leather belt from TOES in a 25 man guild either, you know. The belts from terrace were just THAT rare. Barely anyone got their BiS if it included those belts.
Also - if you use the example that you get the same item 3 weeks in a row in a 10 man, that's 50% of the loot of the boss. That means that you're assuming that a 25 man can use an item if they get 3 of those a week, for 3 weeks in a row (a total of 9). This is just not the case, unless we're talking jewellery (which 10 man has a decent chance of using 3 of the same of, too).

RNG is RNG, both sizes. Don't just assume the grass is greener on the other side.

[Deleted]

No guaranteed tokens (saw only Council Of Eldrers, but i assume its from every boss) from 10man. Thunderforged drop in 25man around 30-40% + at least one tier token.

Derp derp, this is not reviving 25man but killing 10man :P

[Sabsy]

We're 8/12 atm and have not seen a SINGLE thunderforged item, from drops or from rolls.

I do realize there is some RNG involved with this but it's a bit ridiculous that a lot of the 25man streams i've watched see 1-3 thunderforged PER BOSS. I mean the stat difference isn't that huge but for things like heroic thunderforged weapons it's going to be a big difference

[Puerto]

Didn't blizzard state that they implemented the Thunderforged items to give incentive to raiding 25 mans? Why are people surprised at the drop rate?

Gear that is not Thunderforged is more than enough to help you down these bosses, but if you don't like the drop rate in 10 man and really want those BiS Thunderforged items... go 25 man.

With that said... Blizzard will probably nerf the drop rate in 25 man because of all the QQ.

[Enosh]

No guaranteed tokens (saw only Council Of Eldrers, but i assume its from every boss) from 10man.

what? that sounds like a bug
I know the theme of this patch is "lets fuck over 10 mans as hard as possible", but that sounds just too crazy even for blizzard

[Deleted]

what? that sounds like a bug
I know the theme of this patch is "lets fuck over 10 mans as hard as possible", but that sounds just too crazy even for blizzard

Yeah, this happened. I am not sure if its this bug or not, but we are definately only one guild, what from i saw and read on forums. We got Str Polearm and cloth boots from Council.

[suicuique]

I believe in 25 man every boss drops 2 thunderforged items. That's afaik from what we have killed.

Certainly not. We have killed 6 bosses in 25 man raid. Of all the items that dropped only 2 items were thunderforged.

RNG being RNG I guess?

[Royalite]

im hoping this will persuade people to come back to 25!

Same here.

It has become a selling point for recruiting. Ten mans from an organizational stand point are so much easier to do.

[beingmused]

what? that sounds like a bug
I know the theme of this patch is "lets fuck over 10 mans as hard as possible", but that sounds just too crazy even for blizzard

If you think 10mans are getting screwed over, then go 25s. Oh, what's that? 25man raiding is way harder to schedule, requires you to keep 35+ raiders to ensure attendance and composition every night, requires way more time in constant recruitment, swaps during fights, and makes it practically impossible to do things like raid more hours than scheduled? Having one measly incentive to be 25s in the face of all of that uphill crap is not something to complain about.

[Dubalicious]

when nothing but Protectors tokens drop for weeks on the same boss, it's not about setup, it's about shit RNG.

I'm so glad Blizzard made it so this can NEVER happen in 25 man raids.

And auto-trinket drops are also very nice on 25 man.

RNG? Ain't nobody got time for that! (in 25 man raids)

[Sting]

I was gonna pull the good old anecdotal evidence card, but from reading this thread it seems the droprate is indeed fairly high.

[Maelstrom51]

RNG is RNG, both sizes. Don't just assume the grass is greener on the other side.

While its true RNG is RNG, and a 25 man can have worse RNG, basic statistics stuff puts 25 mans in a much much better situation when it comes to RNG.

As the sample size increases (number of items dropped), the observed chance of something happening approaches the expected chance of something happening.

I.e., flip a coin 6 times, there is a huge chance it won't be anywhere near 50% heads 50% tails. Flip a coin 30 times, it still likely won't be 50% of each, but it will be much closer.

---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 09:18 PM ----------

If you think 10mans are getting screwed over, then go 25s. Oh, what's that? 25man raiding is way harder to schedule, requires you to keep 35+ raiders to ensure attendance and composition every night, requires way more time in constant recruitment, swaps during fights, and makes it practically impossible to do things like raid more hours than scheduled? Having one measly incentive to be 25s in the face of all of that uphill crap is not something to complain about.

What do you mean one measly incentive? 25 mans already got more loot per player in the raid, have an easier time at the new hard world boss, and have less problems with loot RNG.

[Dubalicious]

I.e., flip a coin 6 times, there is a huge chance it won't be anywhere near 50% heads 50% tails.

But the likelihood of it being EXACTLY 50/50 (or any other specific combination) is much higher with only 6 flips.

[Baphomette]

Didn't blizzard state that they implemented the Thunderforged items to give incentive to raiding 25 mans? Why are people surprised at the drop rate?

Because they said 25s would be "slightly higher." Doesn't sound like there's anything slight about it so far.