No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[Creatinebrah]

TIL: A game will fail because millions of gamers have the same logic of few people in a 44page thread

lul.

[Leonard McCoy]

Whatever the tier was, you were ready within a week.
That's as instant as you can get in an MMORPG.

How can T14>T15>T16 ever be as "fast" as that?


Because if you can't have your shiny within a week, you will quit and mock in your corner.
Yeah.. That's really mature.

So do you have anything to add to this discussion that isn't insulting people for being kids because they don't like that progress-path in the game?

Abuot as mature as people upset that I could get shinies in a week who quit about that. Or mature as people who can't fucking restrain themselves and must have daddy developer grind and gate them at the expense of all of us.

I have lots to add and I've added alot. In the future when they make it SO FAST THAT IT ONLY TAKES A WEEK TO GET CAUGHT UP and will in reality be virtually instant then you'll crying salty salty fucking tears.

[Deleted]

This shift just has to be accepted. New five mans just do not server any sort of purpose, and if you want new challenge modes they've already hinted that they'd prefer to retool older content. Five mans are there to gear up before LFR, for quick valor runs and for challenge modes. That is their purpose, not catch up.

Are you KIDDING me? "just has to be accepted"? Does nobody remember how amazing the 4.1 ZA/ZG 5-mans were? The glory of the ICC 5-man dungeons?

"New five mans just do not server any sort of purpose", and Scenarios do?! Scenarios are an easy way out for telling a story that could ALSO be told in a 5-man dungeon. The 4.3 dungeons (End Time, etc.) each told a story and they did it well - the main complaint was that they were tuned for people in <359 ilvl gear, when most of us were running around in 378/392 gear.

People run heroics the entire expansion to cap their Valor points, and you're telling me adding new heroics "serve no purpose". How about NEW, REFRESHING CONTENT, for one?

It genuinely saddens me that their focus has shifted from bringing out challenging 5-man content to boring scenarios that people only do once, and LFR. Friggin' LFR.

[ringpriest]

Roughly yea. Their was as little impedence to me running new lfr when it came out in 4.3. Prior to that their was little impedence to me running firelands pugs with a decent ilvl either.

Of course it's based purely on speculation. I mean it could simple that the sky has fallen and the allfather odin has decreed no more subs for Blizzard. OR mists has failed to keep players and the subs continue to drop. Look at some point even in Blizzard land 2 + 2=4. If dailies quests and grinding for months on end were going to save this game then we should have seen an increase. We haven't. They lost almost half the subs they made during the intial mists rush in like 3 or 4 months. When they lose the other half will you tell me mists was the best thing ever? At some point you have to take a hard look and be objective and say it failed to hold players. Just like cataclysm failed to hold players. They will continue to fail to hold players. Until they get their act together and release more content (not more grind and not more ates) at a better rate.

We don't know yet though. Siege of Org may be a DS-level epic fail for a year, which would bring a major crash in subs. (At least, that's my guess.) Otoh, it could turn out to be ICC and Ulduar rolled into one, and a million people will resub to run it with their friends for a couple months before the (completely hypothetical) awesome-looking expansion announced at this year's Blizzcon goes live.

I sincerely doubt we're ever going to actually see more content than we got in MoP. Blizzard is firmly in milking mode with WoW, they're not going to spend a penny more than they need to. There's probably a bean counter somewhere in Activision-Blizzard HQ, going "Hey, did you know that if we fire the entire development team and make the next expansion 100% recycled content but can still keep a measly 2 million players, we actually make more money than we did with Burning Crusade?" (Or words to that effect.) The team that made WoW is basically gone, and they're not coming back.

[Felade]

Pretty disappointed about this. Five mans have been some of my favorite content in WOW. I don't really like Scenarios - my general feel in there is "What am I doing here?" and "why do I have to go around clicking things instead of playing my class?" They aren't fun, and often take longer to complete than 5 mans because you get truly terrible partners. They are probably just as good at telling a story as a 5 man, which is to say, not really very good at all.

I enjoy tanking, and I enjoy healing. On the tanking part, I find 5 man tanking much more engaging than raid tanking (which usually amounts to parking in front of the boss, popping your CDs at the right time, maybe taunt switching, and praying your healers are good at what they do).

The last good 5 man in my opinion was the new ZA. ZG was annoying (again, I don't like clicking on things instead of playing my class) and the Dragon Soul 5 mans were pretty boring and too easy.

Challenge modes don't really help things, either. You have to organize a group and set aside time - that's what raiding's for. You can't just jump in a queue and get a solid experience as a tank or a healer anymore. 25 man LFR doesn't really provide that - for healers, it becomes a study in meter padding, while for tanks, it becomes an exercise in doing the same content you do in regular raids, only with more standing around picking your nose.

[Leonard McCoy]

We don't know yet though. Siege of Org may be a DS-level epic fail for a year, which would bring a major crash in subs. (At least, that's my guess.) Otoh, it could turn out to be ICC and Ulduar rolled into one, and a million people will resub to run it with their friends for a couple months before the (completely hypothetical) awesome-looking expansion announced at this year's Blizzcon goes live.

I sincerely doubt we're ever going to actually see more content than we got in MoP. Blizzard is firmly in milking mode with WoW, they're not going to spend a penny more than they need to. There's probably a bean counter somewhere in Activision-Blizzard HQ, going "Hey, did you know that if we fire the entire development team and make the next expansion 100% recycled content but can still keep a measly 2 million players, we actually make more money than we did with Burning Crusade?" (Or words to that effect.) The team that made WoW is basically gone, and they're not coming back.

And we will continue to see sub losses because of it. It's a vicious cycle.

They lost half of the million they gained in like 3 or 4 months. They said the next expansion won't have as much downtime between the last patch and it's release but the faster patch releases don't matter when everything is gated and grinded in the name of "progression"

[Deleted]

Abuot as mature as people upset that I could get shinies in a week who quit about that. Or mature as people who can't fucking restrain themselves and must have daddy developer grind and gate them at the expense of all of us.

I have lots to add and I've added alot. In the future when they make it SO FAST THAT IT ONLY TAKES A WEEK TO GET CAUGHT UP and will in reality be virtually instant then you'll crying salty salty fucking tears.

You are the most annoying and bitter person I have ever met on the internet. It is absolutely beyond me why you still frequent a forum that is dedicated to a GAME that you obviously HATE so much in its current state. Thanks for the info about the ignore option some posts ago though. I wouldn't have found out about that without you.

[Leonard McCoy]

You are the most annoying and bitter person I have ever met on the internet. It is absolutely beyond me why you still frequent a forum that is dedicated to a GAME that you obviously HATE so much in its current state. Thanks for the info about the ignore option some posts ago though. I wouldn't have found out about that without you.

I'm honored. And may your first child be a masculine child. I'm the godfather.

[Deleted]

Given how gated and grindy the current raids are don't see why the previous ones have to be the same thing. Tick tock. Clock is running subs are bleeding. You might get your f2p wish sooner rather than later

Here we go AGAIN with subs are bleeding because there is no instant catch up.

How do you know this as fact, I 100% guarantee that you do not in any way shape of from know this.

Subs could be bleeding 3 times as fast IF there was instant catch up.

You can NOT use "subs are bleeding" to back up your argument, unless you have a machine that puts you in an alternative reality where there is instant catch up.

Stop with your total utter bullshit anecdotal evidence, and try posting constructively about something.

[Leonard McCoy]

Here we go AGAIN with subs are bleeding because there is no instant catch up.

How do you know this as fact, I 100% guarantee that you do not in any way shape of from know this.

Subs could be bleeding 3 times as fast IF there was instant catch up.

You can NOT use "subs are bleeding" to back up your argument, unless you have a machine that puts you in an alternative reality where there is instant catch up.

Stop with your total utter bullshit anecdotal evidence, and try posting constructively about something.

Subs are bleeding because they ignored the root of the problem in cataclysm, which wasn't lack of gates or grinds or daily quests. Subs are bleeding because theirs a host of f2p alternatives and Blizzards current product doesn't provide enough value for that 15 bucks a month relative to what you can get out there in f2p games. So subs will continue to bleed because Blizzard refuses to provide more raids and more dungeons at a better pace WITHOUT the grinds and gates of mists. Their is virtually no difference between being bored because you don't like what's offered to you or you don't like how it's paced versus being bored because you exhausted all the rewarding content and the developers have failed to provide you with more at a good rate. I say virtually because their is one key difference. In the latter I at least enjoyed myself at one point. In the former it was a mess.

I can use and will continue to use it because people constantly shit on cataclysm for having lost subscribers and blaming the lack of grinds and gates on it. Mists is loosing subs to. I've been posting constructively, I just haven't agreed with what you said or the vision of this expac.

[Kanx]

Really not bothered about new 5 man dungeons mid-expac. They would have been nice if a challenge mode were to be included too.

[AVPaul]

I think Blizzard are missing one improtant thing: content obsolotes not only "physically" (i.e. being replaced by newer one), but also "morally" (i.e. players get bored by this content). By using gating and no catch-up policy dev are trying to prolong content's "physical" life time, forgeting, that it actually doesn't work with "moral" life time, which may lead to opposite result - players may get bored even more. For example: I've quited this game, but I might want to return to see siege of Ogri. Don't you think, that gating and no catch-ups will prevent me from doint it? It will. Don't you think, that "bad" customers are still better, then no customers at all?

[Daedelus]

Subs are bleeding because they ignored the root of the problem in cataclysm, which wasn't lack of gates or grinds or daily quests. Subs are bleeding because theirs a host of f2p alternatives and Blizzards current product doesn't provide enough value for that 15 bucks a month relative to what you can get out there in f2p games. So subs will continue to bleed because Blizzard refuses to provide more raids and more dungeons at a better pace WITHOUT the grinds and gates of mists. Their is virtually no difference between being bored because you don't like what's offered to you or you don't like how it's paced versus being bored because you exhausted all the rewarding content and the developers have failed to provide you with more at a good rate. I say virtually because their is one key difference. In the latter I at least enjoyed myself at one point. In the former it was a mess.

I can use and will continue to use it because people constanly shit on cataclysm for having lost subscribers. Mists is loosing subs to.

So you reckon those half million people will resubscribe if there is a new 5 man in 5.3?

LOL

[Lionor]

Pretty disappointed about this. Five mans have been some of my favorite content in WOW. I don't really like Scenarios - my general feel in there is "What am I doing here?" and "why do I have to go around clicking things instead of playing my class?" They aren't fun, and often take longer to complete than 5 mans because you get truly terrible partners. They are probably just as good at telling a story as a 5 man, which is to say, not really very good at all.

I enjoy tanking, and I enjoy healing. On the tanking part, I find 5 man tanking much more engaging than raid tanking (which usually amounts to parking in front of the boss, popping your CDs at the right time, maybe taunt switching, and praying your healers are good at what they do).

The last good 5 man in my opinion was the new ZA. ZG was annoying (again, I don't like clicking on things instead of playing my class) and the Dragon Soul 5 mans were pretty boring and too easy.

Challenge modes don't really help things, either. You have to organize a group and set aside time - that's what raiding's for. You can't just jump in a queue and get a solid experience as a tank or a healer anymore. 25 man LFR doesn't really provide that - for healers, it becomes a study in meter padding, while for tanks, it becomes an exercise in doing the same content you do in regular raids, only with more standing around picking your nose.

Amen to that!

Despite the faults of Cataclysm the effort-reward-difficulty balance of 5mans in Cata was spot on (Apart from the 3 DS heroics which were too easy)!

If they have kept this in game along with the new progression paths that MoP offers, MoP would have been one pretty epic Xpac.

Scenarios suck, they are probably less entertaining than dailies (and I hate dailies with a passion). It's just a lazy ass excuse for fast, cheap content that will keep the masses satisfied (they get easy valor).

[Leonard McCoy]

So you reckon those half million people will resubscribe if there is a new 5 man in 5.3?

LOL

Potentially yes. Overall it would require they remove the massive amount of gating and grinding (especially of the old content) and then add dungeons and new forms of progression content outside of the raid that aren't just dailies or aren't as grindy and gated and slow i.e dungeons with gear

[Throrion]

Just out of curiosity why exactly do people feel new 5-mans are needed?

I personally would rather that they focus on dungeons which have a tried and true purpose with the community (and which appeal to every skill level now, with challenge modes), instead of desperately fumbling around to find a purpose for scenarios. They are wasting way too much time trying to define a feature which was, self-admitted, incredibly vague and without purpose when they released it. They have the tech now, and it can be used for some useful things (like story focused stuff) but I really think the majority of effort gone into scenarios this expansion could have been much better served creating 3-4 cool new dungeons.

WoW is closing in on 10 years of age, so it's obvious that they need (and are trying) to experiment with new things to keep the player base interested. But sometimes you just have to cut your losses, and perhaps they should realise that "3 man dungeons that are not really dungeons and are super easy and which give shitty rewards (woops, this made people not want to do them so now they give less shitty rewards) and which for the most part could have just been easier 5 mans, and now we want to make some more challenging ones as well, what are we doing :S" is not really a very well designed feature. They don't really serve any niche that another variation / difficulty setting for ordinary dungeons couldn't have done. When people wanted new features for WoW, I don't think kind-of-dungeons-except-for-3-people! was high up on the list.

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard are missing one improtant thing: content obsolotes not only "physically" (i.e. being replaced by newer one), but also "morally" (i.e. players get bored by this content). By using gating and no catch-up policy dev are trying to prolong content's "physical" life time, forgeting, that it actually doesn't work with "moral" life time, which may lead to opposite result - players may get bored even more. For example: I've quited this game, but I might want to return to see siege of Ogri. Don't you think, that gating and no catch-ups will prevent me from doint it? It will. Don't you think, that "bad" customers are still better, then no customers at all?

Yeah but it's not really gonna be all that gated as you make it out to be, so i don't see your point.

[Deleted]

I can use and will continue to use it because people constantly shit on cataclysm for having lost subscribers and blaming the lack of grinds and gates on it. Mists is loosing subs to.

And of course cata lost millions and millions of subs.

But cata had instant catch up right?

It can't possibly be the reason that it lost millions of subs right?

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I've been posting constructively, I just haven't agreed with what you said or the vision of this expac.

lolololololololol you have been posting like an angry teenager who thinks foul language and aggression will get you what you want.

[AVPaul]

Yeah but it's not really gonna be all that gated as you make it out to be, so i don't see your point.

So what's the point of not making 5ppls in 5.4 then? My be just because without 5ppls it will take month(even longer, if you won't do dailies) or someting like that to catch other players up? And one month is meanfull amount of time, I think.

[ringpriest]

They said the next expansion won't have as much downtime between the last patch and it's release but the faster patch releases don't matter when everything is gated and grinded in the name of "progression"

They've said that about every expansion, and they've failed pretty much every time. I'm fully expecting 10 months (give or take a month) from Siege of Orgrimmar release before the next expansion. Maybe they'll slow things down by having a daily hub that needs to be completed before your server can access the raid.