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  1. #201
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    A lot has been said here and I can't honestly say I'll read through it all but instead will just post my two cents.

    For me personally after having been active in multiple MMOs a long with online play for Xbox and Playstation etc etc the internet has come to a point where I personally feel the average person who has been around long enough should be numb to such talk. Whether it be in a serious manner or joking, the fact of the matter is just to state the very obvious. Everything shifts, including how people may view gay or racist comments. It just comes down to a context of words, and in all honesty now a days on the internet these sort of discussions have lost ALL forms of context.

    They really, truly, hold no meaning anymore. Even if someone may be serious about insulting another for their race or sexual preference, the fact that it floats around so much... that person's words hold zero value from the second they think about saying it to the point that they hit enter to send it across.

  2. #202
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    All analogies have their limitations. I have suggested previously that LGBTQ behavior is not harmful in the same way that lying or acting out on a bad temper is harmful, but that is not the measure of a moral act. Morality is concerned more than just whether or not a set of behavior causes harm. As C.S. Lewis wrote, “I am not angry-except perhaps for a moment before I come to my senses-with a man who trips me up by accident; I am angry with a man who tries to trip me up even if he does not succeed. Yet the first has hurt me and the second has not.” Likewise, killing someone in self-defense is harmful, but most people would not condemn it as immoral, even though harm was done. Whether or not something is harmful may play a role in moral judgment, but is not the whole picture. Morality is a measure of how close our behavior is in sync with the ideal (which I submit is God’s will), regardless of whether or not it is harmful.

    The reason, I suspect, is because we are appealing to different criteria as to what makes an act moral or immoral. If you base morality entirely on whether or not something causes harm, then as long as LGBTQ behavior causes no harm, there is no reason to label it as immoral. If, however, morality is based on something more than whether or not something causes harm, such as behaving as intended by a higher standard that exists apart from us, then it very well may be that the LGBTQ set of behavior is immoral.
    :S sorry i did not mean that morality is about things that are harmfull or not, i meaned that is not a good thing to compare 2 things that don't have to do much with each other cause it may insult someone

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post

    No one ever likes to be told they’re wrong; that much is clear. And some people may accuse others of wrongdoing in a hateful manner, but that does not mean that standing up for what is right is inherently arrogant or spiteful. The only reason we should ever look down on someone is if we want to help them up and would want them to do the same for us.
    Yeah i understand your point, but i just wanted you to know why some people react like that, cause for us, what some people say about homosexuality is an insult to us

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post

    Of course, but each side must understand that name-calling (e.g. “fag” or “homophobe”) is counterproductive to civil dialogue and generates only resentment and animosity between people who disagree.
    I totally agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post

    Not a problem. I suspect if I tried to post in your first language, I would not fare so well as you have done here in English.
    Thanks

  3. #203
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Really? You want gay characters in WoW? Really? It's not World of Relationshipcraft. It's not important whether someone like Admiral Taylor loves men or women. And of course main characters like Varian and Thrall will always have to be heterosexual if you want their kids to play some role in the future.
    Arthas and Jania
    Kael'thalas and Jania
    Kalecgos and Jania (she gets around)
    Thrall and Aggra
    Tyrande and Malfurion
    Tyrande and Illidan
    Varian and Tiffany
    Alleria and Turolyn
    Veressea and Rhonin
    The Player if s/he plays a Goblin.

    Your argument would hold weight if the franchise was not littered with blatant heterosexual relationships. No, I'm not saying Blizzard is homophobic. But the distinct lack of homosexual relationships is almost distressing, and a blatant ploy not to offend the player base of WoW. Which, let's be honest, the majority are straight men that like to call each other 'faggot', 'homo' and 'gay' in every other sentence. Ergo, not a very liberal place to be.

    I'd be genuinely pleasantly surprised if an honest, decent and well written homosexual relationship occurred between two women/men to rival that of the heterosexual characters. I personally was actually surprised when Shandris expressed interest in that male night elf; got the major lesbian vibe from her...

    It's not just homophobia really. The internet draws out the plebs in people for some reason. I mean, sexism rears it's ugly head in WoW too, and racism. Anything that does not conform to the majority of white & male is likely to be discriminated against in some sort of way.

    Edit:
    What I find upsetting is that LGBT people are clearly in need of mental health assistance, then they come storming in everywhere demanding recognition / acceptance. It's hard enough for most people to just tolerate it (which they do) without calling them crazy.

    For instance a biological imperative is something which appies to all living beings, if you fail a biological imperative you are classified as maladaptive (mentally unwell). Reproduction is one of those biological imperatives which LGBT fail. But it goes beyond that, LGBT boys often think they're girls, LGBT girls often think they're boys... some thing they're polysexual unicorns.

    So the point is, there is a difference between toleration, and bending over for people who are ill... which society shouldn't do and you can't force an individual to do.
    Wow. Just wow.

    It makes me laugh how people still hold this attitude in 2013.
    Last edited by D-Balthalzar; 2013-03-12 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    If they are ill then there should be a shot to cure it right? There's no cure for genetics except well to shoot them. Rather than kill the intolerant assholes, I'd rather give you the gift of life. An autistic girl and homosexual son. Let's see how intolerant you are when they come from your own DNA.
    There's no shot that will cure a few cards missing from the deck, not sure where you're from.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Wow encourages racism at its core. The very principle of the game is to have players hate on people on the opposing side of something just because they can.
    i have never thought of it this way until now haha. "kill him! hes an orc!" is kinda like saying "kill him! hes african!"

    oh well, i guess theres the maturity side of it that knows where to separate the two. I really cant say most wow players cannot, but i can say most wow players that talk in trade/general cannot lol.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 12:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibbzter View Post
    There's no shot that will cure a few cards missing from the deck, not sure where you're from.
    that one whizzed over your head huh?

  6. #206
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post

    Wow. Just wow.

    It makes me laugh how people still hold this attitude in 2013.
    Please try not to make those kind of comments, cause someone may feel insulted, when you don't agree with someone say why or just say that you don't agree but you don't have to insult anyone, if for some reason you don't want to answer or you know your answer might be hurtfull just don't do it, cause we all know where goes a conversation between 2 angry people... (Insults), BTW is not like i agree with his/her opinion, but lets try to "discuss" peacefully

  7. #207
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Please try not to make those kind of comments, cause someone may feel insulted, when you don't agree with someone say why or just say that you don't agree but you don't have to insult anyone, if for some reason you don't want to answer or you know your answer might be hurtfull just don't do it, cause we all know where goes a conversation between 2 angry people... (Insults), BTW is not like i agree with his/her opinion, but lets try to "discuss" peacefully
    He compared homosexuality to being, in his own words, an 'illness', but yes of course my comment was the offensive one lol.

    As an open bisexual man, I do take some offense to people saying I have a mental problem. Not enough offense to care about his opinion, but enough offense to question why he thinks that and why we as a world are progressed enough to recognise and appreciate the differences in people (for example, a woman that isn't maternal and doesn't want kids will not face discrimination despite the fact that she too is, by that mans definition, 'ill' as well since she doesn't want to reproduce and thus by his standards apparently failing the human race) as long as it conforms to hierarchy of societal values. So it's okay to be different in your ideology and morals as long as you fit the ethnicity and sexuality bill.
    Last edited by D-Balthalzar; 2013-03-12 at 04:32 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    He compared homosexuality to being, in his own words, an 'illness', but yes of course my comment was the offensive one lol.

    As an open bisexual man, I do take some offense to people saying I have a mental problem. Not enough offense to care about his opinion, but enough offense to question why he thinks that and why we as a world are progressed enough to recognise and appreciate the differences in people (for example, a woman that isn't maternal and doesn't want kids will not face discrimination despite the fact that she too is, by that mans definition, 'ill' as well since she doesn't want to reproduce and thus by his standards apparently failing the human race) as long as it conforms to hierarchy of societal values. So it's okay to be different in your ideology and morals as long as you fit the ethnicity and sexuality bill.
    Instead of viewing the world around you in terms of "progress" you should call it malaise instead, you're right though in 2013 we've come to the point where you will sit there with a straight face and tell me that you having sex with a man is perfectly normal. Take a step back and think out of the box you've been put in.

    That isn't normal. That isn't natural, the cause is illness and cultural decadence.

  9. #209
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    He compared homosexuality to being, in his own words, an 'illness', but yes of course my comment was the offensive one lol.

    As an open bisexual man, I do take some offense to people saying I have a mental problem. Not enough offense to care about his opinion, but enough offense to question why he thinks that and why we as a world are progressed enough to recognise and appreciate the differences in people (for example, a woman that isn't maternal and doesn't want kids will not face discrimination despite the fact that she too is, by that mans definition, 'ill' as well since she doesn't want to reproduce and thus by his standards apparently failing the human race) as long as it conforms to hierarchy of societal values. So it's okay to be different as long as you're Caucasian, heterosexual and preferably a man, but women are 'tolerated' too.
    I understand i too felt ofended by his comment, but i clearly told him before that his comment was offensive and i didn't offended him saying that, also we should not do to others what we don't want them to do to us.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    He compared homosexuality to being, in his own words, an 'illness', but yes of course my comment was the offensive one lol.

    As an open bisexual man, I do take some offense to people saying I have a mental problem. Not enough offense to care about his opinion, but enough offense to question why he thinks that and why we as a world are progressed enough to recognise and appreciate the differences in people (for example, a woman that isn't maternal and doesn't want kids will not face discrimination despite the fact that she too is, by that mans definition, 'ill' as well since she doesn't want to reproduce and thus by his standards apparently failing the human race) as long as it conforms to hierarchy of societal values. So it's okay to be different as long as you're Caucasian, heterosexual and preferably a man, but women are 'tolerated' too.
    The 'failing the human race' argument is also funny because there are far TOO MANY humans in the world to begin with, and that is starting to be a real problem in many countries. There is also a huge amount of orphans and children that already exist and may benefit from parents that prefer adopting.

    That argument works for pandas, wolves or elephants. They wouldn't say gay rats are wrong because they don't produce more rats, would they? And we don't need to fumigate to prevent overpopulation, we just need to have less children! The world needs gay people!
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  11. #211
    the way i see it, is who gives a fuck really? my coworkers laugh when i say i support gay marriage. I really dont give a shit so why should i impede on other peoples happiness? two men getting married in no way affects my marriage. Now personally, i do find it a bit gross, but thats my opinion. If it makes you happy then do it and im not going to yell out its the end of the world if two guys want to get married.

    It reminds me of this one Colbert Report clip where he interviewed Neil Patrick Harris. he said to him "I like you Neil, and that is strange, because you are a gay man. Its almost as if your happiness, doesnt affect my happiness" lol

    People can throw out the bible shit all day, but in the end if they really read the bible, they would find there are probably 10 things they are doing the bible frowns upon. they can also throw around America this America that. Im one of the most patriotic people i know, im patriotic as fuck. Im also pretty sure when the founding fathers set up the nation in was on the idea to basically, stay the fuck out of peoples shit...plain and simple (plus they all came from Europe, you would be a fool to think none of them were gay...haha ok joke over). Don't brush your hatred and ignorance off on religious figures and patriots.

    But...

    Of course there is a "but" to my rant (no pun intended)

    I personally don't go around telling people im straight just because im straight...

    i will leave it at that cause you know where im going with it.

  12. #212
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaeevictiss View Post
    the way i see it, is who gives a fuck really? my coworkers laugh when i say i support gay marriage. I really dont give a shit so why should i impede on other peoples happiness? two men getting married in no way affects my marriage. Now personally, i do find it a bit gross, but thats my opinion. If it makes you happy then do it and im not going to yell out its the end of the world if two guys want to get married.

    It reminds me of this one Colbert Report clip where he interviewed Neil Patrick Harris. he said to him "I like you Neil, and that is strange, because you are a gay man. Its almost as if your happiness, doesnt affect my happiness" lol

    People can throw out the bible shit all day, but in the end if they really read the bible, they would find there are probably 10 things they are doing the bible frowns upon. they can also throw around America this America that. Im one of the most patriotic people i know, im patriotic as fuck. Im also pretty sure when the founding fathers set up the nation in was on the idea to basically, stay the fuck out of peoples shit...plain and simple (plus they all came from Europe, you would be a fool to think none of them were gay...haha ok joke over). Don't brush your hatred and ignorance off on religious figures and patriots.

    But...

    Of course there is a "but" to my rant (no pun intended)

    I personally don't go around telling people im straight just because im straight...

    i will leave it at that cause you know where im going with it.
    I agree with you, also is true there's no reason to be "showing off" your sexual preference, but some people think that if i go out with my boyfriend, i'm "showing off" that i'm gay..., but... in that case, i just want to have a nice date with him, just as you want to have a nice date with your GF...

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    I agree with you, also is true there's no reason to be "showing off" your sexual preference, but some people think that if i go out with my boyfriend, i'm "showing off" that i'm gay..., but... in that case, i just want to have a nice date with him, just as you want to have a nice date with your GF...
    yea, obviously i dont see that as showing off. What i see as showing off is deliberately proclaiming you are gay, doing all the gay pride parades/parties, or thinking you should be treated differently or have different rights just because you are gay. I see that as just creating a group. If you want to be treated like straight people (or treated fairly...not sure how to word this here without sounding offensive), i would think putting yourself into an obviously different group would just be counter-productive.

  14. #214
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
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    But...

    Of course there is a "but" to my rant (no pun intended)

    I personally don't go around telling people im straight just because im straight...

    i will leave it at that cause you know where im going with it.
    Because you don't live in a society that shuns you based on nothing other than ignorance .

    I get what you mean, I really do. It *is* annoying when people continually bring out the political friendly card and start issuing warnings. But they came about for a reason. I'm sure when Martin Luther King was doing his race marches, alot/some/what ever your optimism level is at white people of America were probably thinking 'we get it, you're black, you have it hard, now shut up and go home'. But no, he persisted for a reason. The people of America *needed* to recognise that discrimination is an evil thing, and Martin Luther King simply did one or two speeches and then faded into the background, nothing would be done about his plight.


    What I'm trying to say is that it's annoying on a personal level, because even the most kind person gets sick of being harassed and bombarded about things they don't think they can change/don't personally effect them, but it's a necessary process to develop an accepting society that does not discriminate.

    Plus, homosexuality has another challenge that doesn't apply to race. You can't particularly see homosexuality. Yes, you'll probably argue that there are a significant amount of gay people that so openly and visually break their gender stereotypes that they HAVE to be gay, but they are ironically the minority of the homosexual community.

    What I'm trying to say is - the average gay/lesbian person does not break their gender stereotype. Me, for example, am an average guy and no-one suspects I'm bisexual unless I flat out tell them. So, like me, many homosexuality people feel like they HAVE to state that they're gay so they're recognised because in every other regard they're a 'normal' bloke/girl. So these people can only communicate their identity verbally; they don't do it to show off, but it is a huge part of who they are that largely remains invisible unless they state it.

    And remaining invisible in the context (people discriminating against a minority) is incredibly detrimental to the acceptance of homosexuality, where every single voice matters to turn the tide on the ignorance of the majority (and for the record, as I'm sure you're aware, it's working. I have never personally experienced homophobia in real life, and latest statistics in the UK atleast reveal that only about 15% of the 'young' generation consider themselves homophobic now. That's already miles better than as little as 10 years ago. And we've now come to a situation where being homophobic actually places you into a minority, since the majority now accept homosexuality... so yay >.>). So yeah, it's a shitty and annoying situation I agree, but really, it's needed for the most part.
    Last edited by D-Balthalzar; 2013-03-12 at 05:04 PM.

  15. #215
    it's NORMAL for humans to bash what they aren't. it's a clan mentality. if you don't believe your clan is better than everyone elses clan, you're weird. you can temper that for the sake of society, but it's still there. if calling people a name throws them off their game, and arguing online is most definitely a game, then it's a useful tool.

  16. #216
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaeevictiss View Post
    yea, obviously i dont see that as showing off. What i see as showing off is deliberately proclaiming you are gay, doing all the gay pride parades/parties, or thinking you should be treated differently or have different rights just because you are gay. I see that as just creating a group. If you want to be treated like straight people (or treated fairly...not sure how to word this here without sounding offensive), i would think putting yourself into an obviously different group would just be counter-productive.
    I understand that there's no point in proclaiming you are gay and what is a gay pride party? O.o

    But in case of the Gay pride parade..., well IMHO is like the same thing that the women's day or the races day (I'm not pretty sure how is that day called in english) i mean, is a parade that show... well that people are proud to be gay and that there's no need to be ashamed of what you are, if you look at it these way, there's no straight pride parade, because there has never been a moment were you would be hurted or discriminated because you're straight...

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    I understand that there's no point in proclaiming you are gay and what is a gay pride party? O.o

    But in case of the Gay pride parade..., well IMHO is like the same thing that the women's day or the races day (I'm not pretty sure how is that day called in english) i mean, is a parade that show... well that people are proud to be gay and that there's no need to be ashamed of what you are, if you look at it these way, there's no straight pride parade, because there has never been a moment were you would be hurted or discriminated because you're straight...
    those parades are meant to be attention grabbers to further a cause, they're usually where the attention whores gather to be seen though and they don't further a cause

    if anything they'll hurt it.

    a parade for anything that is considered "normal" or "majority" would be like everyday life.

  18. #218
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackyfrost View Post
    it's NORMAL for humans to bash what they aren't. it's a clan mentality. if you don't believe your clan is better than everyone elses clan, you're weird. you can temper that for the sake of society, but it's still there. if calling people a name throws them off their game, and arguing online is most definitely a game, then it's a useful tool.
    That's the problem, the "clan mentality" should change, cause just because we have different opinions or/and that we like different things doesn't mean that X or Y group is better than the other

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    That's the problem, the "clan mentality" should change, cause just because we have different opinions or/and that we like different things doesn't mean that X or Y group is better than the other
    that will never change, but neither will the fact that humans dream of utopia

    in a perfect world we'd get bored to death. we thrive on conflict and can't live without it

  20. #220
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackyfrost View Post
    those parades are meant to be attention grabbers to further a cause, they're usually where the attention whores gather to be seen though and they don't further a cause

    if anything they'll hurt it.

    a parade for anything that is considered "normal" or "majority" would be like everyday life.
    Hmm. Well, everyone (including gay people) view pride parades differently.

    I personally think at their core, they're meant to further the awareness of how the homosexuality community is discriminated against, but also embrace diversity. Because, after all, the human race is meant to be known for it's diversity. We've come to the point in history where people are now *proud* to be part of the homosexuality community.

    However some gay people don't appreciate the significance of pride parades, and instead exploit them for selfish reasons (huge gathering of gay men/women (bare in mind, the dating selection pool for gay people is MUCH smaller than their straight counterparts, so a *huge* gathering of gay people is actually quite a big deal to us), most go looking for an easy hook up these days... which is admittedly disgraceful), so they've acquired a rather bad reputation where even gay people now see them as a bad thing.

    So yeah, I think the principal is sound, but the execution is done poorly because... well... of humanity really, selfish desires usually win our over selfless desires. Gay people are people too, and ask yourself this, what would you rather do - appreciate and celebrate your status as a minority, or get laid?

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