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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Old content needs to be optional.

    You cant throw the leftovers to the newcomers and pretend that they are happy with it.
    Old content is "new to you" with the exception of alts until you're past it. Even then, if all it took was killing each boss in the old content once to move on I wouldn't mind on my army of alts (and I not only raid casually, but also have a character of every class). I think catching up is good. I don't like a system that just throws you to the end though either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Guilds doing 2 years of Karazan was BAD, really bad and should not be a goal.
    I agree, but someone coming in and doing Karazaan for the first time a year after BC first released wouldn't have been even remotely bad (that place was awesome when you first got there).

    The problem was two-fold. One, some guilds never successfully found a way to function as more than a 10 man guild (so the players were geared and good, but the numbers were a problem) and the other was the shear amount of grinding raid progression took back then meant some people were killing the same bosses forever to gear up their next newest member whenever a replacement was needed instead of moving on to new challenges.

    There are ways of avoiding both of those problems without throwing progression out all-together.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Crym View Post
    Old content is "new to you" with the exception of alts until you're past it. Even then, if all it took was killing each boss in the old content once to move on I wouldn't mind on my army of alts (and I not only raid casually, but also have a character of every class). I think catching up is good. I don't like a system that just throws you to the end though either.



    I agree, but someone coming in and doing Karazaan for the first time a year after BC first released wouldn't have been even remotely bad (that place was awesome when you first got there).

    The problem was two-fold. One, some guilds never successfully found a way to function as more than a 10 man guild (so the players were geared and good, but the numbers were a problem) and the other was the shear amount of grinding raid progression took back then meant some people were killing the same bosses forever to gear up their next newest member whenever a replacement was needed instead of moving on to new challenges.

    There are ways of avoiding both of those problems without throwing progression out all-together.
    You are wrong, old content is not "new", if you buy an old car, it wont be "new" to you because you didnt have it before, if someone gives you the leftovers from his launch, it wont be a "new" meal to you.

    Old content is old and should be optional, new content needs to have catch up.

    Those who start at the first patch should have full progression, those that come at end patch shuould be able to catch up to last patch relatively fast and without being at mercy of heavy RNG without needing all the previous content, and if they are intesrested the old content is there for them.

    Works for everyone, everyone is happy, no drawbacks, except special snowflakes which their enjoyment comes form content others are NOT doing instead of the content they are doing..

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    You are wrong, old content is not "new", if you buy an old car, it wont be "new" to you because you didnt have it before, if someone gives you the leftovers from his launch, it wont be a "new" meal to you.
    There's definitely some of that with really old content. I was leveling a Draenei not long ago and I was just thinking "I remember in BC when I was grateful for how streamline this questing experience was compared to the old world, but it's just terrible compared to how well organized stuff is now."

    I don't think something a few months old really falls into the "horribly outdated" category though. You make it sound like getting a 2012 car with no miles on it would dramatically decrease your enjoyment of driving because it's "old". Sorry, but you're going to have to go back a ways before you're stuck with cassette players and no power steering. We're not talking about "left-overs" where other people going through it reduces the entertainment value for everyone after them either.

    I actually experienced this first-hand in BC personally. I didn't start raiding until after some guilds were well into BT. I still loved the heck out of Karazhan for a while. It did get old eventually, but not because I was person who felt like the only way to feel good about yourself is to be at the same place as everyone else. It was because our guild was too small for 25 mans and as people kept going to bigger guilds we perpetually farmed Kara for a geared team we'd never get.

    I also went back and did Naxx in Wrath on an alt with a PuG well after the expansion was going. Man, that was way worse than it was on my main at the beginning. Not because the content was "old news". It was because everyone in there overgeared the content so much it was a race instead of a raid. It would have been nice to do it with other people who were there because that's what step they were legitimately on and not just hunting achievements.

  4. #24
    I think the catch up issue is more with alts that with new players. New players won't mind seeing content that is a little older as it's all new to them anyway. Same with returning players.

    But alts need a better way to catch up. Or, rather, we need a better way to reroll.

  5. #25
    I think the current system completely blows. The pool of players doing the old shit remains small and shallow. LFR is practically a single player experience and is 100% more fun to be dead in then to participate in 7 patchwerk fights with no mechanics, dangers, coordination, communication, or teamwork required. Daily quests and rep-gating valor rewards is just garbage. I mean some people like to eat shit, and that's fine. But don't force me to come to your house for dinner and eat shit with you.

    It's terrible. ANd if your luck is bad it can still take you forever to gear up because the valor cap is absurd and even if it weren't all the valor rewards are gated behind weeks of daily bullshit.

    If the psychopath's egos are so fragile that people getting caught up to them quickly makes them want to kill themselves(they should just go ahead and do it) then Blizzard should come up with more exclusive rewards for getting the raids down while they are current rather then inflict the punishment of tedious LFR garbage on the rest of the playerbase
    Last edited by Mordredofmia; 2013-03-11 at 08:27 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordredofmia View Post
    I think the current system completely blows. The pool of players doing the old shit remains small and shallow. LFR is practically a single player experience and is 100% more fun to be dead in then to participate in 7 patchwerk fights with no mechanics, dangers, coordination, communication, or teamwork required. Daily quests and rep-gating valor rewards is just garbage. I mean some people like to eat shit, and that's fine. But don't force me to come to your house for dinner and eat shit with you.

    It's terrible. ANd if your luck is bad it can still take you forever to gear up because the valor cap is absurd and even if it weren't all the valor rewards are gated behind weeks of daily bullshit.

    If the psychopath's egos are so fragile that people getting caught up to them quickly makes them want to kill themselves(they should just go ahead and do it) then Blizzard should come up with more exclusive rewards for getting the raids down while they are current rather then inflict the punishment of tedious LFR garbage on the rest of the playerbase
    Hilarious and spot on assessment.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    While top 100 and a lot of other people don't care. I am sure people who barely can get into a heroic care about "casuals who with their limited time can have access to the same gearstandard as they have". Some of them probably are childish as you say. But don't think it is a minority. But hey... I don't have the numbers and you don't either and then we can debate wether or not that minority is actually THAT minor.

    I am not saying I disagree btw. But the way you made your post is not really saying anything. I do like your "remove the rep" thing. That would actually help everyone.
    It is a fact that all normal and heroic raiders put together don't come anywhere near being a majority of players and the numbers are out there. If you double the number of guilds 10 man raiding guilds x 12 and the number of 25 man raiding guilds x 30 you'd still be way short of a majority.

    You can disagree if you want but even Blizzard acknowledges that non-LFR raiding is not a very high percentage of the players.

    Beyond that however, what barely heroic raiders feel about the gear other people have is not relevant and in fact, non-raiders DO have access to the same ilvl gear as those people in 5.2 so saying that they would object to lower ilvl gear being made available via dungeons or other catch-up mechanisms doesn't make the slightest sense.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordredofmia View Post
    I think the current system completely blows. The pool of players doing the old shit remains small and shallow. LFR is practically a single player experience and is 100% more fun to be dead in then to participate in 7 patchwerk fights with no mechanics, dangers, coordination, communication, or teamwork required. Daily quests and rep-gating valor rewards is just garbage. I mean some people like to eat shit, and that's fine. But don't force me to come to your house for dinner and eat shit with you.

    It's terrible. ANd if your luck is bad it can still take you forever to gear up because the valor cap is absurd and even if it weren't all the valor rewards are gated behind weeks of daily bullshit.

    If the psychopath's egos are so fragile that people getting caught up to them quickly makes them want to kill themselves(they should just go ahead and do it) then Blizzard should come up with more exclusive rewards for getting the raids down while they are current rather then inflict the punishment of tedious LFR garbage on the rest of the playerbase
    It just blows my mind that this minority of minorities is being catered to so much in this expansion. Not only will not make their accomplishments feel "validated" it probably won't even keep them subbed. The child who is crying about others getting the same toy is the child who just wants attention. Im just amazed Blizzard catered to them this expansion.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordredofmia View Post
    I think the current system completely blows. The pool of players doing the old shit remains small and shallow. LFR is practically a single player experience and is 100% more fun to be dead in then to participate in 7 patchwerk fights with no mechanics, dangers, coordination, communication, or teamwork required. Daily quests and rep-gating valor rewards is just garbage. I mean some people like to eat shit, and that's fine. But don't force me to come to your house for dinner and eat shit with you.

    It's terrible. ANd if your luck is bad it can still take you forever to gear up because the valor cap is absurd and even if it weren't all the valor rewards are gated behind weeks of daily bullshit.

    If the psychopath's egos are so fragile that people getting caught up to them quickly makes them want to kill themselves(they should just go ahead and do it) then Blizzard should come up with more exclusive rewards for getting the raids down while they are current rather then inflict the punishment of tedious LFR garbage on the rest of the playerbase
    Fun Fact: Old content is being done by a very large amount of players. If you want to do old content and no one on your server is inviting you, I suggest you do the following:

    Register on Openraid and figure out how to sell yourself to the raids that need people. In other words, figure out what to say to get them interested in you. If you haven't cleared normal mode raids, figure out what words you need to say to get invited. If you fail, try again. Eventually someone will invite you. Assuming you've done research on the fights so that you're not holding the raid back, a successful clear will open up future runs.

    With the 10% nerf to 5.0 raids, none of what I suggested should be remotely difficult. You can find a normal mode raid at pretty much any near-peak hour.

    If you're not interested in doing that, then your argument holds no weight.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    It just blows my mind that this minority of minorities is being catered to so much in this expansion. Not only will not make their accomplishments feel "validated" it probably won't even keep them subbed. The child who is crying about others getting the same toy is the child who just wants attention. Im just amazed Blizzard catered to them this expansion.
    I sort of wonder if they've just heard the "vanilla was so much better" complaint so many times they actually started believing it. For instance, this last patch apparently took out the auto-granting FP system they'd put in a while ago. I haven't been leveling alts, but it was nice to be able to fly to roughly where level appropriate quests would be instead of hoofing it from wherever is closest that you'd already gone to. Especially with dungeons and battlegrounds leveling people well beyond where they "last were".

    It adds nothing to the gaming experience for your questing to start with mounting up, turning on auto-run, and zoning out for an hour (or with an awesome setup, watching TV) while following a trail to the town with the FP anyway. However, so far I haven't heard that this was a bug. My guess is they wanted to appease the "it was so much better when I was a kid" crowd.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Lately on these boards I see a change happening.

    First we had people who said: "OMG why can't Blizzard make all content (of that expansion) relevant?!"
    Now we have people who say: "OMG why do I need to catch up, I want to jump into the fray with my friends the moment I hit 90!!!!"

    So finally Blizzard listened to people who wanted to have all content relevant (cause it was supposed to be a shame of all the work the developers did and players wanted a natural progression, seeing the story, especially if they were new).
    I think the important question is, how many people are there that start in the middle or towards the end of an expansion and are interested in raiding ?
    Because i'm pretty sure almost all people i see in LFR are twinks. And they have done the old content ad nauseum.
    So this "poor devs, no one wants to see your marvels" argument probably holds no water.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    So this "poor devs, no one wants to see your marvels" argument probably holds no water.
    Especially since they are probably more excited to get reactions about their newest marvel than more about the stuff they did a year ago.

  13. #33
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    Its not the gearing that is stopping me from playing my alts its the damn linear leveling. I have 6 characters I enjoy them all thoroughly, but when I have to do the same quest lines over and over again with no change or options it is just ridiculous and a waste of time IMO. I was loving the Pet battle leveling and wish it had stayed around, but of coarse they think everyone enjoys quests which I hate. you could almost completely level 80-85 in cata with dungeons, now you get like 1/8 of a level if you do the dungeon and quest and can only afford to do them one time as questing is now the only option for doing anything in this game. I wont be playing much longer as its the alts that keep me playing the game, and if I cant be bothered to level, well then there is nothing for me to do.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    I got my newly turned 90 Mage, who hit 90 the day before 5.2, from a 442 iLevel to a 489 iLevel within a week.

    47 iLevels from running LFR, doing Heroics, buying Darkmoon Trinkets, crafting gear, buying the reduced Valor Point gear.
    I don't believe you for even a second, Destil. I think you're lying, straight up. If you'd like to prove me wrong, post the armory of your mage so I can also see his iLevel and the date he dinged 90. Because with 1 weeks worth of valor, you'd still only be able to get 1 piece. Crafting gear/darkmoon trinkets requires tens of thousands of gold, something the average person trying to catch up will not have.

    And requiring you to have LUCK, not determination/hard work, in LFR. I still don't believe you though, so maybe if you can post an armory I'd believe.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Lately on these boards I see a change happening.

    First we had people who said: "OMG why can't Blizzard make all content (of that expansion) relevant?!"
    Now we have people who say: "OMG why do I need to catch up, I want to jump into the fray with my friends the moment I hit 90!!!!"

    So finally Blizzard listened to people who wanted to have all content relevant (cause it was supposed to be a shame of all the work the developers did and players wanted a natural progression, seeing the story, especially if they were new).
    But now people complain that they cannot go to the last instance after a short grind in 5 man heroics....

    Personally:

    I used to be a "very commited/dedicated" raider. And when I was with that mindset, I wanted everyone to be behind me if they stepped into the game late. They needed to do the same "amount of work" as I did to come where I was. Ofcourse this state of mind backfires as soon as you are looking for new recruits for your guild. But that is not the point etc I am trying to make. I did the work, so I wanted to be special. Let's leave it at that. Oh yes: I never cared much for alts. I made an alt tho in WOTLK. And I laughed my ass off that in 72 hours I leveled a toon to 80 + made him ICC heroic viable. I thought it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. But it was handy.

    Now I am very much casual. I am making more alts. I now have 3 alts (Warrior, DK, Druid). Now in this expansion I must say that I am a little frustrated about how everything works. I do those endless quests, get myself to 90 - then do the same dailies etc. Spend enormous amounts of time on my single new alt. Therefore neglecting my other alts. Which means less valor for them and or reputation (if still needed). I can handle 2 characters at once per week and cap the valor. Thats the amount of time I have. So now I am hurting. Sure the new patch is nice tho. 50%/25% off the 5.0/5.1 valor items. This does help. No denying it. And the grand commendations work aswell. But it does suck to maintain "control" over all your characters at the same time. Now I am not saying that you should be able to cap every character you have on that particular realm. Now you have to choose what you find most fun/important to play for/on.

    But more and more I am inclined to agree with the "new" posts about not being able to jump on the same boat with my friends... and raid in the latest tier.

    I know this sounds selfish...: I would like alts to made that jump should the player so choose. New players perhaps shouldn't be able to make that jump. But then LFR for these instances that are still important to those players will have an insane queue.

    So thats not an option either. I think Blizzard still did it right - they chose the best option - and went for content to last. Even to the frustration of players.

    What do you think?
    I think that the problem still the completely random way lfr assign loot compared to lfg, in lfr you are restricted to one loot each boss each week + the bonus roll, since acquiring elder charms and probably mogu runes after 5.3 drop is tied to the new daily hub it is resonable to think that not so many peoples do those new dailies with alt; so in the end with 5 mans you can run them endlessly and at last gear up an alt in a rasonable timeframe, in lfr without the bonus roll you are forced to 1 run each week with a completely rng based loot mechanic or do the new dailies with each alt to acquire the bonus rolls.
    One of my guildmate has an alt hunter he still running lfr every week since prior patch 5.1 and still doing it with a rare bow, this week he has done terrace for 9 time consuming all the charms and nothing dropped from lei shen aside golds.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    It just blows my mind that this minority of minorities is being catered to so much in this expansion. Not only will not make their accomplishments feel "validated" it probably won't even keep them subbed. The child who is crying about others getting the same toy is the child who just wants attention. Im just amazed Blizzard catered to them this expansion.

    This is exactly what is happening.

    People crying because others get a similar (yet a little worse) toy and Blizzard catering to them.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordredofmia View Post
    The pool of players doing the old shit remains small and shallow. LFR is practically a single player experience and is 100% more fun to be dead in then to participate in 7 patchwerk fights with no mechanics, dangers, coordination, communication, or teamwork required.
    And yet, judging by the number of people progressing in organized raiding, the majority of the player population wants this. Heck, even at its peak, in Wrath, most players did not raid with their guilds.

    Quasi-single player MMO is actually a very popular playing style. One could even argue it's the playing style that put WoW on the road to stardom -- being able to solo level was a distinguishing feature of WoW, early on.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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