should 10 man raids have 1 extra piece of loot?

[Ryokosan]

I've been in a 10m for all of MOP. While doing our T14 we had 6 prot token 4pcs (that's main spec and off spec) between three players before we even saw a single 2 piece bonus for a single dps. I would like to see a smart loot drop system where loot drops a bit less based on how often it drops. Meaning there's more round robin with the drops. There's quite a bit to be upset with in 10ms at the moment, such as raid balance from fight to fight, especially in ToT. Megaera (10) 263 (6.44%) vs Jin'rokh the Breaker (10) 3975 (97.35%). I mean I want a challenge but having an ez mode boss that nearly every 10m has killed and then 4 bosses later only 6.5% have killed shows a massive imbalance in fight to fight difficulty. (I am aware that there are MANY other reasons to this, like some raids didn't raid as much etc, it's just a general blanket statement). This will lead to more problems down the road in heroics due to the terrible loot distribution. In 10m you have a very good chance you're DEing drops on the second week and in some cases both pieces from multiple bosses get DEd on the second week. Top this with HAVING to do "optional" dailies to get the 90 coins for a chance at a 3rd drop... well, I just think the system is simply not working out.

With all this in mind, Blizzard does need to make the system work in such a way where the content needs to be "farmed" to maintain subs, it's just good business practice.

[eschatological]

Remember Sinestra 10, so overtuned, and unfixed for so long, that no 10 man guild killed it in the world til February, a good 2 months after the tier came out?

Remember H-Cho'gall 10 which *needed* a mage to push him to phase 2 before the raid was gibbed?

Remember H-AC 10, perhaps the hardest fight in the tier?

Remember H-Blackhorn, where we had to cover the same amount of space in soaking barrages, which hit for the same amount in 25 man, but with 2/5th the people, which meant you were often soaking with debuffs?

Remember every 10 man heroic progression fight ever which uses 2 heals, not the 3 you seem to think heroic 10 mans are based around?

There are countless fights where 10 man were harder. And there are numerous fights where it was easier (Zon'ozz/Spine come to mind).

Can we at some point also stop the "25 mans are harder to organize" thing? Guess what, it's harder for the 3-4 people running the raid to organize. I raided in a 25 man for T7-11 when 25s were mandatory for progression, did Yogg0 when it wa scurrent, etc, etc, and all I did was show up for raid time as a non-officer. Do you know how many people we need to organize a 10 man now? 3. Roughly the same. If you talk about how many people you need to contribute in terms of raid mats, farming, etc, you have maybe 4 or 5. Either way, it's a larger percentage of our group which contributes to the organization of our raid.

On topic: I think tier tokens shouldn't be counted as one of the two drops. Other than that, 2 is fine. In our 12/12 normal clear this week, I got THREE (3) sets of mail agility hands (tier, 2 offset). Not one single STR plate DPS piece dropped. Obviously, one run is one run, but the math has been done, 10 mans gear slower because of less spec diversity, less depth in gear categories, and proportionally less gear per kill. And now, less than half the amount of thunderforged drops. Have fun in your easier 25 mans designed around 522 ilvl when you all have multiple items 6 ilvl above it.

[Deleted]

Well my 10man raiding, from the start of MSV/HOF/TES to ToT, never had a single piece of leather spirit drop. RNG is RNG, just gotta live with it. (i'm a monk healer)

1 extra piece of loot can just be another piece you can't use, your never gonna cancel out the RNG.

[Royalite]

I'm not even going to comment on 10s getting more loot or not, but seriously, did you ever do heroic Nef in T11? You needed 6 people that could interrupt in 10. Halfus without a shaman? Just this last tier, we had to have a rotation of 3-4 people interrupting on heroic protectors. Yes, a rotation. And if someone screwed it up in the last phase, we'd probably wipe. With most fights these days, you just don't need to interrupt at all or it's tied to some special ability (See: Tortos, Amber-shaper, Feng). But when you do need to, you generally can't get away with one person doing it in 10.

And remember tanks since they were not hit capped could have their interrupts miss!

But yet 0.o
All of the 25 man guilds from Wrath on my server about 12 of them or so downsized to tens in teir 11. Only two guild managed to stay 25m after the changes and by the end of Cata there were none.

[l33t]

I think tier items should be classless. Like it was in TotC. This will solve any problems, because every 10-raid is struggling on RNG. But I don't believe Blizz will do anything.
I really hate 10-ppl raids nowadays. We have less loot, we have A LOT MORE hard bosses. And Blizz just continue to try buff 25 ppl with loot, started with a bonus item, now it is a increased thunderforged chance. I don't mind that if only raids were balanced, but last two tiers are horrible for 10 while being completely and utterly facerolling in 25.
And please, don't start all that coin stuff It is as RNG as everything else; and remember that it fits 25 man raids even more that 10 just because of pure math.

[Rasar]

I'm sorry but to say that ToT 25 man is HARDER then 10man you'd have to be a complete pudding head.

25man is complete joke on normal mode, you can almost completely ignore mechanics and just power through almost every boss with dps and healing. Having done both up to Lei Shen I can honestly say that 10man is FAR less forgiving and requires far more coordination then 25. Not saying you cant cheese certain mechanics in 10man but there is way more room for error on 25. So I would agree, 1 more piece of loot would be nice on 10man especially with the RNG factor.

Where as the loot in 25 is a joke I can simply throw on my helmet, attach the drool cup to my chin and press my 4 buttons in a static rotation and collect away.

[Demeia]

I made the suggestion back in Cataclysm that ten man should drop two tier tokens, each with 5 classes on them, and 25man should keep the 3 tier token system. That would help reduce the amount of "hey shaman, how's your third 4-set going for you" while others haven't even got a single 2-set bonus.

I feel the new "bonus roll" system really helps take away the pressure on this. Granted, I went 0-70 looking for a combat mainhand despite this system but that was some kind of insanely bad luck.

I'd love to see the odd chance of getting 3 pieces of loot--but they are happy with the drop rate.

[eschatological]

Twin Consorts was pretty jokes on 10 man, though, I'll give you that, especially for the 11th boss in a 12 boss instance.

[Netherspark]

10man used to drop 2 items + a token. I don't get why they changed it...

[PBitt]

How about a system that ensures that loot can only drop for the classes that participated in the boss kill?
Meaning that if there was no class that could wear mail, no mail items would drop. Maybe make it spec dependent as well?

That would solve a lot of problems, seeing as we had to disenchant 5 items out of our 6 Sha of Fear Heroic kills on 10m because no class was available during the boss kill that could wear those items.

Pretty much what I was thinking. In pretty much any 25 man, there is always someone that can use the gear, even for an offspec. It is a little harder to gear in 10 man unless luck is on your side or if you're a special snowflake and you're the only one that needs a certain type of gear, you'll probably gear faster than everyone else as a result. But yeah, be it 10 or 25, I don't think it would be a bad idea to totally exclude items no one needs in raid...for example spirit plate if you don't even have a pally, especially when you kill a heroic boss that you spent over 50 attempts on, I don't see whats wrong with getting gear that someone in your raid woudl want, even if it is for OS. It really would only take a couple items off the loot table at most unless you have a really funky comp. In 10 man, I think 2 pieces of gear is pretty good, I just wish we got more gear that was useful...I mean, at any given time, maybe 50% of the loot table is a direct upgrade to someone in the raid, so chances are usually that one item goes to someone and the other either goes to offspec or gets melted. Some groups are luckier than others but in my experience since the start of Cata when I went 10 man only, literally 50% of 10 man gear at the very least goes in the garbage can or to offspecs that are rarely used, more so the more you farm something, as we tend to get the same shitty drops quite a bit.

[Emerya]

Twin Consorts was pretty jokes on 10 man, though, I'll give you that, especially for the 11th boss in a 12 boss instance.

Yeah, that one was pretty sad. We 2-shot it after our paladin discovered that beacon transferred corrupted healing stacks and gibbed himself while failing to actually use any of the constellations. Just brute forced it and beat the enrage. I can only assume it's similarly easy on 25 though. Looking at WoL's succes% (kills vs wipes) for it, it's 26% for 10, 29% for 25 right now.

[Belloc]

Here's a suggestion: All 10-man bosses have a chance to drop an extra piece (maybe 15-25%). All 25-man bosses have a chance to drop up to 2 extra pieces (70% for 1, 10-20% for 2).

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 10:06 PM ----------

10man used to drop 2 items + a token. I don't get why they changed it...

10-man has been dropping 2 pieces per boss since Burning Crusade. It might have changed in Cata, but I guess they changed it back?

[Netherspark]

10-man has been dropping 2 pieces per boss since Burning Crusade. It might have changed in Cata, but I guess they changed it back?

In the 10/25 format, 10man was dropping 2 items + 1 token until Firelands came out.

[Deleted]

In the 10/25 format, 10man was dropping 2 items + 1 token until Firelands came out.

With until firelands you mean T11, 10 mans existed before that and it just dropped 2 items then.

[Meleti]

People already get BIS too easily, don't add extra loot.

[Deleted]

Running trash after horridon, thunderforged epic drops. And guess what, it's intellect plate, we don't have Hpala in our group.
Something thunderforged (really fucking rare in 10man) going to disenchant while some raiders still have some slots with 476 crafts or LFR because RNG was cruel in T14 (we are 8/16 heroic guild pre-5.2). And we beat council today evening, the fuck is this? Only 1 item? Yeah, we had a loot bug, tier token did not drop.

The fuck blizz? Double anal rape by rng?
God damn it just up the damn tiertoken boss drops to 3 items per (2 normal + 1 set) or just make three items drop from every boss but you can only loot two.
The latter idea is actually really neat, does not necessarily funnel lewt on 10mans but cuts on the fucking disenchants and items not dropping for months. THIS is what really annoys me, I can stand gearing slowly but steadily. Never seeing my piece drop for 11 resets in a row is another story.

[Marmot]

As a 10 man player, I feel this is the price we pay for not playing 25.

[kilj]

As a 10 man player, I feel this is the price we pay for not playing 25.

There should be no penalty for not playing 25 raid, its utter garbage....

[Brakthir]

I'm sorry but to say that ToT 25 man is HARDER then 10man you'd have to be a complete pudding head.

25man is complete joke on normal mode, you can almost completely ignore mechanics and just power through almost every boss with dps and healing. Having done both up to Lei Shen I can honestly say that 10man is FAR less forgiving and requires far more coordination then 25. Not saying you cant cheese certain mechanics in 10man but there is way more room for error on 25. So I would agree, 1 more piece of loot would be nice on 10man especially with the RNG factor.

Where as the loot in 25 is a joke I can simply throw on my helmet, attach the drool cup to my chin and press my 4 buttons in a static rotation and collect away.

Because normal modes are a big deal, amirite? You're silly if you think that.

[Rtslbd]

I'm sorry but to say that ToT 25 man is HARDER then 10man you'd have to be a complete pudding head.

25man is complete joke on normal mode, you can almost completely ignore mechanics and just power through almost every boss with dps and healing. Having done both up to Lei Shen I can honestly say that 10man is FAR less forgiving and requires far more coordination then 25. Not saying you cant cheese certain mechanics in 10man but there is way more room for error on 25. So I would agree, 1 more piece of loot would be nice on 10man especially with the RNG factor.

Where as the loot in 25 is a joke I can simply throw on my helmet, attach the drool cup to my chin and press my 4 buttons in a static rotation and collect away.

Is this guy serious? I don't think we ran the same instance.