Future Cartel Reputation systems incoming...

[simpleton]

Your example involves cash or items of actual value. These are pixels. There is nothing tangible being acquired. If you're giving your kid a debit card, you're entrusting your kid to not be an idiot. What's the difference between them spending $100 on this crap or buying $100 in junk food? You think McDonald's gives a shit if your kid is spending $100 in Big Macs? How about this. Teach your kid not to do stupid shit and quit asking other people to raise your kid for you.

Of course, how could I even imagine trying to have a discussion about this without some stupid ad hominems about "parenting skills" popping up...

Its gambling. Its buying a "chance" to earn an item. Saying these items dont have a "value" is nonsense.

As to your ignorant attack on me, I question whether you have children. Kids make mistakes, are tempted and disobey their parents from time to time regardless of the love, care,guidance and overall quality of parenting they are given from their parents.

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 04:34 PM ----------

Solution: Don't give your kids your CC information, and if they have their own cards, make sure you are going over their finances with them to help teach them how to be responsible with their money (something my parents did with me when I was young and went a long way in making sure I didn't blow my money like many of my friends did at young age).

It's minimal parental oversight. Giving your kids your CC info and letting them loose on Amazon or Ebay would yield the same kind of results as doing so in the Cartel Market or any other cash shop within a game.

I do. And SWTOR is coming of his list of acceptable games to use his finances on.

Im done here. The personal shots were out of line and ignorant form the poster earlier.

This is gambling. Plain as day. You spend ream world money for a chance to win an item. The item holds value because it takes real money to acquire said item.

Have a good day.

[notorious98]

Of course, how could I even imagine trying to have a discussion about this without some stupid ad hominems about "parenting skills" popping up...

Its gambling. Its buying a "chance" to earn an item. Saying these items dont have a "value" is nonsense.

As to your ignorant attack on me, I question whether you have children. Kids make mistakes, are tempted and disobey their parents from time to time regardless of the love, care,guidance and overall quality of parenting they are given from their parents.

Who said that they don't fuck up? I didn't. However, I don't worry about them going to casinos or buying lottery tickets. I'm much more inclined to be worried they are getting their girlfriend pregnant/getting pregnant, boozing, or getting high. All things that I can't control. What I CAN control is what my kids spend my money on.

And don't call my argument "ignorant". It's only "ignorant" to you because you're preaching about regulations instead of better parenting. Funny how, when people question another about their lackadaisical approach to parenting, they're arguments are "personal attacks". Probably because it hits close to home.

[simpleton]

Who said that they don't fuck up? I didn't. However, I don't worry about them going to casinos or buying lottery tickets. I'm much more inclined to be worried they are getting their girlfriend pregnant/getting pregnant, boozing, or getting high. All things that I can't control. What I CAN control is what my kids spend my money on.

And don't call my argument "ignorant". It's only "ignorant" to you because you're preaching about regulations instead of better parenting. Funny how, when people question another about their lackadaisical parenting, they're arguments are "personal attacks". Probably because it hits close to home.

What a load of crap.

So we should eliminate age restrictions form gambling, pornography and alcohol because they are all just crutches for bad parents.

Moron.

[Deleted]

Oh man, BioWare is really milking the fuck out of the remaining hardcore fans.

Looking at the status of few remaining servers, it's pretty clear F2P is more about milking the people left than bringing in anyone new. As far as I'm concerned SWTOR is very much P2W right now, you can buy yourself into the high end and you're also encouraged to because otherwise you face a mindless grind.

[Edge-]

What a load of crap.

So we should eliminate age restrictions form gambling, pornography and alcohol because they are all just crutches for bad parents.

Moron.

I've not taken a single "personal shot" at you, nor do I plan to. I'm simply pointing out how it is very easy to prevent a child from being taken advantage of in the Cartel Market, or any other online purchasing system.

I agree that these psuedo-gambling systems need to see some form of regulation as they can be quite predatory (see: Most shitty mobile/social game monetization models), however if you look at the horror stories that come out of them most stem from parents who freely give their children access to a credit card for their games and don't go over what their children are using to purchase with it.

[simpleton]

I've not taken a single "personal shot" at you, nor do I plan to. I'm simply pointing out how it is very easy to prevent a child from being taken advantage of in the Cartel Market, or any other online purchasing system.

I agree that these psuedo-gambling systems need to see some form of regulation as they can be quite predatory (see: Most shitty mobile/social game monetization models), however if you look at the horror stories that come out of them most stem from parents who freely give their children access to a credit card for their games and don't go over what their children are using to purchase with it.

I wasnt talking about you, sorry. It was directed at the person calling me out as a bad parent.

I am and do monitor. It just bothers me that there is no question that its an intentional way to coerce and manipulate their playerbase through gambling and many of their playerbase are, in fact, minors by the very nature of the IP and the fact its a video game.

Sorry about getting emotional. It just infuriates me to see a well known and popular developer and publisher stoop to these levels in such a predatory way.

[Razael]

Annnnnnnnnd with this, i bid SWTOR farewell. Just lost the small interested i had in RotHC.

[Deleted]

I actually don't mind the basic idea of Cartel rep. I mean, there's no difference to new cartel vendors on fleets and buying stuff from Cartel Market itself, both require $$ (while the former can actually be accessed using credits if you play GTN). However, adding each separate rep for new wave of Cartel stuff is just dumb. What is the point? Just keep it all in one column. Expand on it, make it more intersting. Same with every other reputation section. Add new missions, rewards etc. It seems like BW wants to add as much Rep factions as possible, not make each the best possible. Quantity over quality :/

[RoninaThorstone]

Oh man, BioWare is really milking the fuck out of the remaining hardcore fans.

EA's next game will be focused purely on riding f2p whales.

[cherb]

BS. I dont have to make sure my kids dont go to a Casino. I dont have to make sure my kids dont buy a lottery ticket at the store. If they are going to sell these items then the game needs to by 18+ only and verify their age or obtain parental consent before they are allowed to play.

If a parent gives their kid their credit card info, I'd hope that they would be smart enough to track what the kid is doing with said credit card. If you give it to them, and are shocked that a 13 year old bought something with a credit card (that he probably has no idea how it really works) then it is not the fault of the company. It's the fault of the parent for blindly allowing a child to use a line of credit.

[Edge-]

I am and do monitor. It just bothers me that there is no question that its an intentional way to coerce and manipulate their playerbase through gambling and many of their playerbase are, in fact, minors by the very nature of the IP and the fact its a video game.

Sorry about getting emotional. It just infuriates me to see a well known and popular developer and publisher stoop to these levels in such a predatory way.

I'd actually argue that the majority of the playerbase are adults. I don't think they ever released any statistics for SWTOR, but I know MMO statistics usually put the majority of the playerbase in their 20's. Star Wars itself draws a very mixed crowd too, ranging from kids to those that have been fans since the first movies came out (and earlier).

I agree that the random packs (in every MMO) are predatory behavior and I'm not a fan of them (hence why I've yet to purchase one), and while I'd love to see something done about them (as they essentially are diet gambling), I don't think we will any time soon.

As for being emotional, I totally understand. I've been as upset about other things different developers have done. It's sad to say, but BioWare Austin are really quite bad at their jobs, and they are complicit with EA in how they are trying to milk this game for as much as they can now. The game was not the financial success anyone expected (you could easily make the argument that it was a financial disaster), so they're doing what they can with it to maximize their revenue as much as possible. This includes shady business practices.

[notorious98]

What a load of crap.

So we should eliminate age restrictions form gambling, pornography and alcohol because they are all just crutches for bad parents.

Moron.

Good job at attempting to divert and change the argument. This isn't about age restrictions on any of the things that you listed although I think gambling and pornography don't need age restrictions. In order to gamble, the kid needs money. The only way to get money is from you unless they're a teenager. And at that point, if they want to be stupid and lose all of the money THEY earned, they'll learn some early lessons in life. As for pornography, other OECD developed countries aren't as uptight as the United States when it comes to sex and the human body. Funny how their teen pregnancy rates are usually lower than ours.

This argument was about how your kids spend the money that you give them through your credit card information and the fact that you want somebody else to parent your children by telling them they can't buy something.

[simpleton]

If a parent gives their kid their credit card info, I'd hope that they would be smart enough to track what the kid is doing with said credit card. If you give it to them, and are shocked that a 13 year old bought something with a credit card (that he probably has no idea how it really works) then it is not the fault of the company. It's the fault of the parent for blindly allowing a child to use a line of credit.

I agree. He uses his own debit card from his own savings account they is monitored by both of us. Its not that he can buy something in the store with his money that he might regret later because of an over indulgence. I would most likely use that as a teaching moment and if he doesn't have the budget for his next subscription date then he would not play that month. What concerns me is the nature of the gambling element thrown into this whole equation. I mean, its enough of of a societal problem that its HEAVILY regulated and even illegal in most parts of the country. I dont think there is anything wrong in stepping in and making sure that this aspect is regulated in the gaming market as well. If developers want to engage in these practices then they should have to follow guidelines and regulations just like very other industry that does similar things. Age restrictions, known posting of the odds of winning individual items per purchase and oversight to make sure that those things are in compliance and a tax on their income generated to fund the industry oversight.

I dont think thats asking too much. There is no way these companies should be given carte blanche to do as they want when the tread into this area of business practice.

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 05:38 PM ----------

Good job at attempting to divert and change the argument. This isn't about age restrictions on any of the things that you listed although I think gambling and pornography don't need age restrictions. In order to gamble, the kid needs money. The only way to get money is from you unless they're a teenager. And at that point, if they want to be stupid and lose all of the money THEY earned, they'll learn some early lessons in life. As for pornography, other OECD developed countries aren't as uptight as the United States when it comes to sex and the human body. Funny how their teen pregnancy rates are usually lower than ours.

This argument was about how your kids spend the money that you give them through your credit card information and the fact that you want somebody else to parent your children by telling them they can't buy something.

Meh.

You're an ass. You really havent read much of what I wrote, or at least comprehended what was sad. You're just latching onto an idea and opinion and trying to make it personal.

[anyaka21]

TBH, I understand the point about this kind of being like a frequent fly miles kind of thing. I just think it's blatantly stupid. I'm a sub, I have yet to spend any of my cartel points because there isn't anything of real value to purchase there. Yeah, there a couple, well maybe 1 speeder (the pod racer) that I've thought about purchasing. But 1800 cartel points? I don't think so.

I don't really like the gear, it doesn't look good, nor does it have set bonus' like tier gear anyways, so it's worthless. Maybe if there was a cool gun or a cool lightsaber hilt or something but not something that would waste my entire stash of coin.

Now rep with the cartel market? Really? Doesn't make much sense at all. If they make it so that only people would spend coin on the cartel market have access too, then it defeats the purpose of being a sub.

[namelessone]

So is it actually normal and common to argue with a moderator on this board? Ouch.

[notorious98]

Meh.

You're an ass. You really havent read much of what I wrote, or at least comprehended what was sad. You're just latching onto an idea and opinion and trying to make it personal.

No, I read and comprehended all of it. If you can't be bothered to clarify yourself, I can't be bothered to read further into your statements. I didn't make anything personal, you took it personally and then started with childish name calling.

Which, by the way, has not received an infraction. What the fuck MMO-C? When I've called somebody any kind of name, I felt the swift ban hammer. This guy calls me an ass and a moron and it's allowed to stand? Feeling like I'm being singled out here.

[RohanV]

I have to admit, I don't really see how it's gambling.

The expected value is not negative. You cannot lose your stake. You cannot increase your stake. Each pack has roughly the same amount/type of items. There's a secondary market which you can participate in if you want to acquire a specific item. All the items are completely cosmetic.

Just because something is random, doesn't automatically make it gambling.

(For the record, I'm a subscriber. I have 3500 cartel coins because I haven't bought a single thing from the Cartel market. All these Cartel things are stupid, but I don't see this as any more stupid than all the other things for sale.)

[Edge-]

I have to admit, I don't really see how it's gambling.

The expected value is not negative. You cannot lose your stake. You cannot increase your stake. Each pack has roughly the same amount/type of items. There's a secondary market which you can participate in if you want to acquire a specific item. All the items are completely cosmetic.

Just because something is random, doesn't automatically make it gambling.

(For the record, I'm a subscriber. I have 3500 cartel coins because I haven't bought a single thing from the Cartel market. All these Cartel things are stupid, but I don't see this as any more stupid than all the other things for sale.)

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/08/re...hares-by-700m/
http://www.droidgamers.com/index.php...chanic-illegal

A few articles about similar systems (but much more extreme) in Japan. The random bags aren't proper gacha systems (thankfully that hasn't made its way over to the West), but the element of randomness that is the heart of the issue is similar.

What you earn from each pack is not equal. Some packs will have vastly superior items to what other packs have due to the random nature of the packs.

Basically, it's a form of diet gambling that encourages mass spending as you are essentially "gambling" on getting a specific item out of it. You could spend tons of cash trying to get that one rare item, and if you don't get it the rest is essentially "Wasted" as you wanted none of the rewards.

[Potato Bus]

Am I the only one who looks at all of this and wonders why people are so worried??

If you don't want to spend money on the packs, don't. If you don't want more CM reps, don't buy these packs (gonna take the whole community to show BW/EA that this isn't a good venture, more-so than forum outrage -- if they make money off this, they won't care how much people complain as long as their profits don't go down).

I don't care that "special rewards" are gated behind the pack reputations. I view it the same as how my Sorcerer can't wear heavy armor or a Jedi class quest robe. The only real difference is that I DO have access to the rep items if I want to spend the cash/credits, but I also have the self-control to not blow my money on it.

Yes, I still plan on playing this game, no it won't really have any effect on how I play it. No, I won't spend more than my sub fee each month (unless something really cool hits CM that I can nab for <$10 without gambling on packs -- have yet to spend a dime on CM to date).

[Ixator]

I don't get why ppl are so upset, nobody has to buy any of the crap they are selling. P2W? How?