Expertise and Brewmaster

[Drunkonbrew]

Now that this is the 5.2 would it be wise for Brewmaster's to be full exp cap. I was looking at Mr. Robot earlier and the way that they have the stats it seems like that it would seem that way, just wanted to see what everyone though about it.

Honestly I was seeing the other 7.5% to crit and haste but just seeing if it would be something to look into.

[Alucin]

expertise is chi generation with a side of dps. where haste is chi generation with a bit of dps and a bit of avoidance via EB.

either way - in 5.2 i'm really not seeing huge problems with chi generation - i'm at around 6% exp with 6k haste i think. everything else can go to crit.
if you're feeling short on chi, expertise is fine. i think i use it for red gem slots (e.g. exp/haste or exp/crit) but don't go out of my way - you get a lot on gear too.

[Yohassakura]

I think the general consensus is to aim for 7.5% hit & expertise with 4-6k haste, with the rest into crit, using haste/crit gems with a few exceptions like JC Agi gems, good socket bonuses or if you need a hit/expertise gem to optimize.

[Nikkaszal]

The expertise hard cap is pretty much just a personal choice thing - if you really, really hate the very occasional parried attack or aren't confident that your Chi flow won't leave you missing one Chi in a hypothetical critical situation, then by all means feel free to go for it.

However, it's not necessary to your overall success. I dropped from 15 to 7.5 a few weeks after starting MSV and never once felt the need to go back. With the excellent reliability of Ascension and a good chunk of haste (running around 6.3 at the moment) coupled with the removal of the cost from lvl30's, I've been sailing smooth with the soft cap ever since.

There was one time I recall - ONE time - when my very first KS got parried by Sha on the pull. It was annoying, but far from a make-or-break and certainly not enough to turn around and do a full reforge.

[Deleted]

I've always run 15% Exp when I'm doing BrM, as it just feels nicer. There's nothing like predicting a big Keg Smash and two chi to use for Guard, and having it get parried.

[SurrealNight]

I've run with 7.5% expertise the whole expansion, the extra 2500 rating is just better spent elsewhere IMO. With Ascension it's easy to bank a little Chi and you should have enough haste where you can do so and not stuck panicking just cause a KS gets parried every couple of minutes (which may not even happen while your tanking since everything is a swap).

I'm not sure pushing us > 7.5% was intended on AMR so think they are looking if the above soft cap stat weight is correct. For now you can just clear the value and while your at it put in your haste break point and you should get what your looking for.

[gynshon]

I ran with 7.5% all tier except 1 week while I was testing it out to see the difference it made. My DPS was slightly lower (shocking) but it was because all my excess went into Crit before.

Last night's Heroic Horridon kill I had 8 Keg Smash parries in just under 11 mins. 2 Jab, 3 Blackout kick parries. I had a guard up every 33 secs on average, and a 40% uptime on the active Elusive Brew buff. 29 PB casts for an average of 1 PB every 22 seconds. Obviously there are times when we don't need to PB, and times we do. Still that is a pretty good ratio, and further proves we don't need to have this godawful amount of haste like others claim.

I had an 88% Shuffle uptime, and the only time it dropped is when we were transitioning from door to door and there was some downtime as we re-positioned. I usually don't "bank" tons of shuffle except for specific fights and I still top the damage meters.

My problem now is because I got the 535 2hander last night, plus my Shadopan trinket I am above the Hit cap, and its tough to get back under because I really don't want to break my socket bonuses. I chose to take the 2hander because a) no one can use it in my raid group, and b) the first one handers will go to our enhance shaman. Funnily enough, I did LFR last night after we killed Horridon, and missed the 1st boss as they were already on bridge trash. We killed Horridon, and I received the LFR 2hander, and then we killed council and I received the LFR 1 hander. Completely wasted.

At any rate, 7.5% is all that is needed. You can have more if it makes you feel better, but having more won't make you the best monk alive. Being the best monk alive makes you the best monk alive. Make sense?

[Drunkonbrew]

Thank you all for the help. Just wanted to see what other Monks were doing!

[SurrealNight]

My problem now is because I got the 535 2hander last night, plus my Shadopan trinket I am above the Hit cap, and its tough to get back under because I really don't want to break my socket bonuses. I chose to take the 2hander because a) no one can use it in my raid group, and b) the first one handers will go to our enhance shaman.

My 25m has a pretty equal group of people needing the 2H vs the DW agil weapons so I've been going back and forth on what to do. Looking at options it seems that Hand of Dark Animus + Upgraded&2xSocketed Empress Claw would be my best combo I would assume.

With the Shadow-Pan trinket being so strong and easy to get I think a lot of us will end up > hit cap eventually.

[Fhi]

With the Shadow-Pan trinket being so strong and easy to get I think a lot of us will end up > hit cap eventually.

I'm already much over hit cap with low ilevel (just started playing one, 486). But that trinket is sooo good.

[kaiadam]

I believe the logic behind AMR's change to expertise values is: if you are tanking, then expertise up until 15% has the same value. If you're not tanking, then who cares?

Personally, I believe in 15%. Running with lower is just adding an additional element of randomness that you have to deal with. While a small and somewhat insignificant matter, why would you willingly give any tribute to the RNG gods?

I mean, if you want to quantify it, sure, you missed X number of keg smashes/jabs/kicks, whatever throughout a fight with 7.5% expertise. I could also point out that the 2500 rating if gone to haste would've only given you 12 more jabs over the course of that Horridon kill as well. Or the same amount in crit would have generated enough elusive brew to give you 6-7 more dodges from Horridon over the kill. When you break stats down like that, almost any amount sounds more or less insignificant

[Fhi]

I could also point out that the 2500 rating if gone to haste would've only given you 12 more jabs over the course of that Horridon kill as well. Or the same amount in crit would have generated enough elusive brew to give you 6-7 more dodges from Horridon over the kill. When you break stats down like that, almost any amount sounds more or less insignificant

12 jabs is 36 seconds of shuffle. 6-7 more dodges is 6-7 more seconds of almost no melee damage. Not saying you are wrong, but I like those more than a couple more keg smashes (those hurt the most if parried).

[gynshon]

I believe the logic behind AMR's change to expertise values is: if you are tanking, then expertise up until 15% has the same value. If you're not tanking, then who cares?

Personally, I believe in 15%. Running with lower is just adding an additional element of randomness that you have to deal with. While a small and somewhat insignificant matter, why would you willingly give any tribute to the RNG gods?

I mean, if you want to quantify it, sure, you missed X number of keg smashes/jabs/kicks, whatever throughout a fight with 7.5% expertise. I could also point out that the 2500 rating if gone to haste would've only given you 12 more jabs over the course of that Horridon kill as well. Or the same amount in crit would have generated enough elusive brew to give you 6-7 more dodges from Horridon over the kill. When you break stats down like that, almost any amount sounds more or less insignificant

Do Heroic Horridon on 10m and you will understand the value of having higher uptime on EB at the later doors and especially in the last phase. I don't want to give anything away yet since its still prog, but believe me, it helps. Not sure of the damage on 25 so wont comment.

[Tinykong]

I really wish there was a way to test out your setup without having to involve your raid team or LFR. 5 man content is pretty meaningless since the Expertise isn't needed, and side from actually taking hits and seeing what it's like, I'm hesitant to leave the 15% Expertise cap because I don't want to spend a whole right night suffering from taking more damage.

[gynshon]

I really wish there was a way to test out your setup without having to involve your raid team or LFR. 5 man content is pretty meaningless since the Expertise isn't needed, and side from actually taking hits and seeing what it's like, I'm hesitant to leave the 15% Expertise cap because I don't want to spend a whole right night suffering from taking more damage.

How do you translate dropping expertise to taking more damage?

[kaiadam]

Do Heroic Horridon on 10m and you will understand the value of having higher uptime on EB at the later doors and especially in the last phase. I don't want to give anything away yet since its still prog, but believe me, it helps. Not sure of the damage on 25 so wont comment.

I basically solotank all four gates on Horridon 25H and never found incoming damage to be much of an issue at all (see sig!), and rather the add pickup was much more critical as they are likely to own some tryhard dps' face. Once you kill the wargod, the melee + triple puncture after a double swipe is a guaranteed 1-shot on any tank class (even monks with us able to stagger the puncture) without a cd running, so more EB is nice but it's unreliable, I'd still have to guard/fort brew/dampen/ps etc.

Essentially what I'm saying is - if you don't think having keg smash/sck/whatever parried a few times over the course of the fight, even if it means a warbear might just turn and bite a dps for 300k upon spawn, then it's not a huge deal to take a couple of extra 150-300k boss swings.

[gynshon]

I basically solotank all four gates on Horridon 25H and never found incoming damage to be much of an issue at all (see sig!), and rather the add pickup was much more critical as they are likely to own some tryhard dps' face. Once you kill the wargod, the melee + triple puncture after a double swipe is a guaranteed 1-shot on any tank class (even monks with us able to stagger the puncture) without a cd running, so more EB is nice but it's unreliable, I'd still have to guard/fort brew/dampen/ps etc.

Essentially what I'm saying is - if you don't think having keg smash/sck/whatever parried a few times over the course of the fight, even if it means a warbear might just turn and bite a dps for 300k upon spawn, then it's not a huge deal to take a couple of extra 150-300k boss swings.

I agree on the add pickup, but I don't think there is a huge disparity in damage between the two, yet 25 has the extra advantage of additional healers. If there was a huge discrepancy, then 25 would need better gear to compensate. Dire Call for instance, 250k on 10, 270k on 25. A little bit more on the add abilities as well. Bestial cry 180k to 200k not a big deal in the grand scheme of things unless the health is so dramatically different you are having to have so many more applications before his death.

How many adds you get in 25? 3 of the balcony per door correct? They have static spawn locations, so they will never turn and one shot people if you have competent raiders, which I know you do. What I am saying is the expertise isn't a big deal in the end, because I am not missing the chi since the lvl 30 talents are not resource heavy anymore. I do know with my projected BIS list, I will be close enough to 15% expertise while maintaining a 5k Haste and a 7-8k crit ratio.

[Tinykong]

How do you translate dropping expertise to taking more damage?

Because chi generators are going to be parried, meaning I'm going to potentially lose up time on Shuffle or Guard.

I don't know which is better, that's why I wish I could try it out first before asking my raid team to put up with a potentially weaker tank for the night.

There is conflicting information all over the place. EJ has people claiming exp. cap is required, some say it's a waste.

[Caeth]

Honestly whatever difference there is, is probably really tiny. The biggest factor for me is that 7.5% is what you need as a WW monk - so when my guild needs me to DPS I'm pretty much already geared for it.

[SurrealNight]

Because chi generators are going to be parried, meaning I'm going to potentially lose up time on Shuffle or Guard.

Outside of the first Keg Smash of the fight you should be gearing yourself with enough haste to always have the Chi you need for Shuffle + Guard to be up all the time. Generating 24 Chi + ~3-4/min for PB doesn't require much haste at all and the net resource loss of Keg Smash parries is only 8 energy, 1GCD, and 1 Chi.

Outside of very specific fight scenarios people are bringing up in general not being expertise capped does NOT equal taking more damage in general at all.