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  1. #261
    Herald of the Titans Asrialol's Avatar
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    Is the stat priority any difference if you're going for a damage disc build? Atonement etc.

    I'm looking for a nice match between Disc and Shadow. Currently I dont have seperate disc/shadow set, so I'd prefer to do something inbetween. Currently I'm full out mastery, but I was wondering if I should maybe go for crit or haste..

  2. #262
    If you don't care at all about the healing output and just want max DPS as disc, then you'd go Crit>Haste>spirit untill you don't go OOM before the fight ends>Mastery, as mastery doesn't affect your damage in any way. More haste means you burn through mana faster due to faster casts, so you'd have to go up in spirit proportionally, compared to a crit>mastery>haste build.
    Solace is also beaten by mindbender in a damage scenario, so you'd lose out on the extra regen from solace, too.

  3. #263
    Damage disc built? So you're looking to get the most out of atonement healing, right? If so then you want to go Mastery>Crit. Mastery wouldn't affect your damage but it would increase your atonement healing. Haste would burn through your mana pretty heavily and your ilvl (511?) sounds like your mana and spirit are on the low side anyway so you shouldn't min/max that yet.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Teegs View Post
    Damage disc built? So you're looking to get the most out of atonement healing, right? If so then you want to go Mastery>Crit. Mastery wouldn't affect your damage but it would increase your atonement healing. Haste would burn through your mana pretty heavily and your ilvl (511?) sounds like your mana and spirit are on the low side anyway so you shouldn't min/max that yet.
    Erh. If you're into heavy atonement, crit>mastery for the most part (there's a specific ratio that's mathematically best between the two). Your argument doesn't really hold any relevance - "mastery wouldn't affect your damage but it would increase your atonement healing". Crit would also increase your atonement, but it has the added effect of increasing your damage.

    While I'm not 100% on the exact mathematical numbers, I am 100% sure that in a scenario where you want to maximize atonement healing, crit is far ahead of mastery.
    You'll also notice that the reason he asks (if you bother to read the entire three lines he posted) is because he wants to be able to use the same set for both DPS and healing - not how he'd maximie his atonement healing.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Erh. If you're into heavy atonement, crit>mastery for the most part (there's a specific ratio that's mathematically best between the two). Your argument doesn't really hold any relevance - "mastery wouldn't affect your damage but it would increase your atonement healing". Crit would also increase your atonement, but it has the added effect of increasing your damage.

    While I'm not 100% on the exact mathematical numbers, I am 100% sure that in a scenario where you want to maximize atonement healing, crit is far ahead of mastery.
    You'll also notice that the reason he asks (if you bother to read the entire three lines he posted) is because he wants to be able to use the same set for both DPS and healing - not how he'd maximie his atonement healing.
    Please link the ratio that mathematically shows crit >mastery for atonement spamming. I haven't been able to duplicate that scenario... also are you referring to 10's or 25's?

    I understand wanting to use the same set for shadow/healing but I don't really understand why a priest would worry about his atonement damage instead of his atonement healing in a raiding scenario? We have dps-ers for that

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Teegs View Post
    Please link the ratio that mathematically shows crit >mastery for atonement spamming. I haven't been able to duplicate that scenario... also are you referring to 10's or 25's?

    I understand wanting to use the same set for shadow/healing but I don't really understand why a priest would worry about his atonement damage instead of his atonement healing in a raiding scenario? We have dps-ers for that
    The point is that mastery and crit have a symbiotic relationship - all your healing gets increased through mastery, however, critical heals "double dip" so to say - first you have the original heal getting increased by 1% per mastery point, and then you have the absorb of that original heals' crit getting increased by 2% - so say you have 10% mastery (10% healing 20% absorb increase) and hit for 10K, you'd get 11K hit along with a 11K*1.2=13.2K absorb.

    And as said, while I don't know the exact ratio, I know that there's an "ideal" amount of mastery compared to crit, although that is purely theoretical. In a real raid enviroment, as absorbs go ahead of actual healing, crit will be "better" than mastery due to the fact that it'll cause less overhealing. This is going to be far more evident next patch even, as the Eternal flame nerf for paladins will cause disc to be the only spec that has "raidwide" absorbs they can stack up.

    In any case, if you've got mathematical proof to back up the fact that mastery is the best way to go in terms of atonement healing, feel free to post it - I only play my disc priest as an alt when we don't have healers aviable, and I feel like I do so on a decent level. But always willing to learn.

    Last but not least - DPS always matters. There's a reason that you prefer a disc priest to say, a holy paladin - both brings absorbs, both brings raid and tank cooldowns, but only one of them brings DPS that'll shave 2% hp off of a boss encounter (which on progress, is oftenly huge. We wouldn't have killed Dark Animus if I hadn't been pumping out 20M damage to the boss over the fight, for example).

  7. #267
    Was just going to post and ask about stat weights. Decided to learn disc on my priest recently, and it seems every web site has a different take with some favoring haste, crit or mastery but no concrete rule. As of now, I've gone crit but still outheal my disc spec when I go holy in lfrs. Guess it's part of the learning curve...

  8. #268
    You need a good amount of crit to get any Aegis proccs to begin with, that in turn is affected by other stats to such as Mastery. I am Holy geared, avoiding crit as much as possible, and when I go Disc it really shows. I hardly get any Aegis healing at all, wich is Discs cornerstone (the biggest one I would say). Bottomline; Mastery won't do much for you if you don't have crit (unless you use mostly PW:S). If you're looking for straight Crit vs Mastery ratio, it should be impossible to say, since it will vary depending on just how much you already have?

  9. #269
    How much spirit would a disc need without horridon/metagem?

    I'm at like 9500 and just using atonement I go dry on mana eventually.

  10. #270
    Mindbender is better than solace now imo...you have to cast 5 solace per minute to break even with mind bender, or one every 12 seconds. I don't really do this anymore since I usually have more potent healing spells to use. Mindbender damage is also pretty significant in 10 man.

    3 mind benders = 57,500 * 3 = 172,500
    1 shadow fiend = 81,000

    mind bender gain ~ 30% mana/3 minutes
    30% mana = 15 solaces (gain 1% mana, save 1% on holy fire cost) = 1 solace/12 seconds over 3 mins

    You'd also only need 5 FDCL procs over 3 minutes to "save" this amount of mana, assuming the instant flash heals are actually useful. seems better for holy
    Last edited by Dorfie; 2013-09-11 at 10:54 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    Mindbender is better than solace now imo...you have to cast 5 solace per minute to break even with mind bender, or one every 12 seconds. I don't really do this anymore since I usually have more potent healing spells to use. Mindbender damage is also pretty significant in 10 man.

    3 mind benders = 57,500 * 3 = 172,500
    1 shadow fiend = 81,000

    mind bender gain ~ 30% mana/3 minutes
    30% mana = 15 solaces (gain 1% mana, save 1% on holy fire cost) = 1 solace/12 seconds over 3 mins

    You'd also only need 5 FDCL procs over 3 minutes to "save" this amount of mana, assuming the instant flash heals are actually useful. seems better for holy
    Holy fire is 1.8% of base mana (aka 300000*0.018=5400).

    So let's say you did a solace every 12 seconds (15 for 3 minutes).
    You'd get 5400+3000=8400 mana per cast, or 126K mana over 3 minutes.
    There is also the normal Shadow Fiend, giving an additional 81K mana, for 207K mana.
    I'd say that even with the slightly sub-par use of solace, it still pulls ahead. You have to remember that regardless of what "more potent" spells you might have, you need to cast penance+solace offensively on CD as disc, in order to keep up archangel (which you really, really, REALLY can't delay when you get your new 2 set due to the 10% crit) - if you say you don't have time to cast solace because it's not potent enough, it means you REALLY can't cast smite, as it is far weaker.


    As for the damage VS solace argument, remember that Solace is less likely to cause you to waste any mana - it is a relatively small amount it refunds every time. A miss-timed mindbender (during a tide, trying to combine it with a hymn etc) has a FAR higher chance of wasted mana. You get a LARGE chunk of it at once.
    Do also remember that while smite/holy fire/penance is 90% of dmg as healing, solace retained it's 100%, making it a slight HPS gain compared to mindbenders slight DPS gain.

  12. #272
    Here is the mastery to crit ratio post. It's actually relatively interesting, I'm trying it atm -- seems to be an increase. So that's nice.

    Made by Elyaan

  13. #273
    Why is this one still active? Shouldn't there either be a change in title or better yet a now thread?

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by QuasarLeginan View Post
    Here is the mastery to crit ratio post. It's actually relatively interesting, I'm trying it atm -- seems to be an increase. So that's nice.
    I had swapped from Crit gemming to Mastery gemming for Heroic Iron Juggernaut. Turns out my ratings were very close to the ratios suggested in the link you gave.

    It *feels* better to me, but that's purely anecdotal until I can do the fights we've cleared for the week a 2nd time.
    "When in doubt, slap it with your big Penance." - Naér, Stormreaver

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    I had swapped from Crit gemming to Mastery gemming for Heroic Iron Juggernaut. Turns out my ratings were very close to the ratios suggested in the link you gave.

    It *feels* better to me, but that's purely anecdotal until I can do the fights we've cleared for the week a 2nd time.
    My guild as of late has had some trouble with people being online (emergencies, internet issues, etc.,) so unfortunately we're not even in heroics yet. Even so given my difference in healing from the first week to the 2nd week after changing my gear (full crit first week, ratio'ed 2nd week.) the healing difference was definitely noticeable. That being said, heroics could be an entirely different story.

    Made by Elyaan

  16. #276
    How do 10man disc priests do fights that are not favorable (malkorok/thok) because you can't atonement at all?

    Prayer of healing spam seems ok for thok, but later on you'll just get chain interrupted. At 545 level you'd probably average 180k hps by blanket pw:s, the glyph drops it to 12 seconds so you can just divine star/mending during downtime. PW:S mana efficiency is about 1:18 if you can do 140k with 30% crit, better than any spammable spell outside PoH.

    For malorok people are so spread out and due to movement poh won't hit all 5, so blanket shielding and penance/mending seems to be the way.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    How do 10man disc priests do fights that are not favorable (malkorok/thok) because you can't atonement at all?

    Prayer of healing spam seems ok for thok, but later on you'll just get chain interrupted. At 545 level you'd probably average 180k hps by blanket pw:s, the glyph drops it to 12 seconds so you can just divine star/mending during downtime. PW:S mana efficiency is about 1:18 if you can do 140k with 30% crit, better than any spammable spell outside PoH.

    For malorok people are so spread out and due to movement poh won't hit all 5, so blanket shielding and penance/mending seems to be the way.
    If you adjust raid groups properly, you should be able to hit all group members with PoH. We had one melee in each group and I used them as my "anchors".
    "When in doubt, slap it with your big Penance." - Naér, Stormreaver

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    There is also the normal Shadow Fiend, giving an additional 81K mana, for 207K mana.
    My normal Shadow Fiend restores only 72k mana. Does he gain additional attacks with more haste?

    But I was wondering about these talents, too.

    I think:

    A) Mindbender: 52.5k mana per minute

    B) Solace:
    72k from normal Shadow Fiend every 3 minutes = 24k per minute
    PW:Solace itself: 3k mana gained + 5.4k mana saved (assuming you still cast Holy Fires without Solace) = 8.4k mana gained per cast

    So to break even with Mindbender, you'd have to cast at least (24+8.4*x=52.5) => 3,39 Holy Fires/Solaces per minute.

    Just have a look at your last logs. Do you cast more? Then Solace gives more mana over the course of the fight.

    A friend of mine who loves to atonement heal casts about 3.95 Solaces/Holy Fires per minute, that's 0.56 PW:Solace more than the break even point, or 8.4k mana*0.56=4704 mana per minute gained. That's 30.6k mana gained over the course of a whole 6:30 min fight, or roughly 1 cascade or 2 flash/greater heals. Hardly gamebreaking.
    I smite less, so I prefer Mindbender. It's easier to press this once per minute instead of every 10 seconds to keep your mana up imho, and I don't really have mana problems when nothing happens and I can play smite bot. I do have when shit hits the fan and I have to use more inefficient heals, and in this case I don't have time to use Solace on CD for a tiny mana return.
    But I think it's basically whatever. Solace heals a bit more, Mindbender does a bit more damage, but the mana gain difference seems hardly noticable over the course of a fight if you don't Holy Fire/Solace like a clockwork.
    Last edited by Lil; 2013-09-25 at 10:15 PM.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    How do 10man disc priests do fights that are not favorable (malkorok/thok) because you can't atonement at all?

    Prayer of healing spam seems ok for thok, but later on you'll just get chain interrupted. At 545 level you'd probably average 180k hps by blanket pw:s, the glyph drops it to 12 seconds so you can just divine star/mending during downtime. PW:S mana efficiency is about 1:18 if you can do 140k with 30% crit, better than any spammable spell outside PoH.

    For malorok people are so spread out and due to movement poh won't hit all 5, so blanket shielding and penance/mending seems to be the way.
    for thok you use inner focus at 4-5stacks so its back up at 22nd stack of roar

    also between 5-9 you can cast 1 POH with BT+PI

    so far ive been doing 1-3 attonement 4-5POH twice or once 6-9PI+BT 1 POH 9-12 PWS spam 12-16 double AM from pally 16-22 i get a bop 22 innerfocus

    but it really depends on what comp you have, this is 10man btw

    as for malkrok tell all your ranged to stay on the freaking inner circle or else your POH wont reach them lol, but ive just been attonementing for dps enrage on heroic

    as for crit vs mastery.... i like crit better :P but i do have 14k crit and 9.5k mastery but i always thought crit and mastery goes well hence i have high mastery/crit rating

  20. #280
    Wonder how all the people that keep saying you only need 8-9k spirit manage to 2 heal fights on normal, let alone heroics.

    On malkorok I was mainly just spamming poh and about 1 minute after the stack phase I went oom at 12k spirit+meta+543 timeless mana trink, at 120k hps, didn't matter though since we had 3 healers who did 170k and the boss died after. Rather doubtful I could 2 heal it.

    I mean yeah if you're 3 healing and just atonement spam 80% of the time then yeah, sure.

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