Is this wrong/illegal/discrimination

[Hyve]

but i guess thats the benifit of working for my company that actually cares about the employees and doesnt make wreckless decicions based on factors that have nothing to do with how well you work.

I've never understood why people seem to think their personal lives have zero impact on their ability to work. I've worked at several places before, stacking shelves, doing a paper round and being on the board of directors. It doesn't matter at which level you're at, we've all done, or seen someone who has called in sick, because they have a hang over, because they don't keep themselves fit.

I'm not asking, and I want to stress this, for a detail analysis of their everyday life from the day they were born to the present, but I do want to know the sort of person I am hiring. Am I hiring a loud-mouthed, drunken idiot who spends his weekends running around causing fights in clubs? Or am I hiring someone that can go out and have a drink with a few friends, enjoy their social life and end the night without being in A&E?

You don't have to answer all the questions, of course, but if I don't know enough about you, and your lifestyles impact on your work, then I can't make a sound judgement on whether or not to hire you.

I'll use an example; Tattoos.

Tattoos are something to me, I don't want to get. I've never understood the desire for one, but I don't really care if people get them. Now, I don't care if you have a tattoo on your ass, or whatever and I am not going to ask. But during the interview, I might ask you to just relax, take off the tie and calm down.If I notice under your cuff though, you've got "I hate bitches" tattooed or something, how can I hire you?

Again, there is a balance. I'm not going to do a full body inspection on you, and you're certainly not going to be treated as company property while you work for us, but I do want to know that if a customer talks to you, you're not going to snap back, you've not got "I eat dead children" tattooed on your forehead...

[Deezlar]

In the UK, this would be discrimination and therefore illegal.
In an interview situation, you are not allowed to ask about a candidates marital status, whether they are a parent, or whether they plan to have children in the future.
The expectation is that if someone accepts a job, and signs a contract to work, you can hold them to the terms of that contract.

Your example of people leaving early to pick up kids would fall into this, as if they fail to perform within the stipulated parameters of the contract, you begin the disciplinary process.

The correct way to handle this at the interview stage is to clearly outline the expectation of the work and the working hours, and ask if there are any barriers to them fulfilling this expectation, at which point they would most likely broach the subject of dependants, which you may then explore. If it turns out that they would need to leave early on a regular basis and the job would not be able to support this flexible style of working hours, then you can reject the application based on them not being able to fulfil the demands of the role.

Its shocking how few people actually do this though, and then bitch that their employees aren't pulling their weight, when its clearly their recruiting methods that are at fault.

[Hyve]

Yes, but the OP asks if you would hire people with kids or who want to one day have kids. I might have missed it, but didn't see where he talked about hiring pregnant women.

Yeh, that was related to another persons post.

If someone has kids, that is a factor, but it isn't critical. There may come a time where they need to go pick up their kids because the school is closed, fine, it happens. But if their kid is a few months old, that is going to be happening a lot, along with daycare and other needs that children have, diverting the attention of the mother from her work.

It is a fine balance, and I tend to ask people if they have kids more out of friendliness and curiosity, then for analysis.

Ah ok, you answered my other question, didn't see this post before I asked the question. Ok, then I don't see the problem, you're giving people their maternity legal rights, then it's ok.

Of course. I'm not denying them their legal right, because that leads to a heap of shit, but I do think that certain laws are a joke, and should they come into effect, then decisions will have to be made.

For example, in the U.K. the Liberal Democrats want to impose in law, that fathers can also take a certain amount of time off for their child. I mean christ, imagine if you're a small company, 4 people and one is off for 3 months on paternity leave. You're pretty much fucked for those three months!

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 10:45 AM ----------

Its shocking how few people actually do this though, and then bitch that their employees aren't pulling their weight, when its clearly their recruiting methods that are at fault.

Hence why my recruiting methods are different. Don't want to answer the question, don't get the job. Simple.

[Rotted]

You walking a very very very fine line, on paper between yourselfs, its fine

but you can't openly say when you recruit "No parents, or parents to be", that is discrimination and you can be caught out for it,

Same as if you have two people in interview stage, say X wants a family in 2 years, Y doesn't but Y doesn't have the qualifications you need but X does, and you take Y over X, and say to X sorry its because were looking for employee who doesn't want a family or kids, then its discrimination again,

Is it illegal? I'm not to sure, is it sue-able? probably

[chocobo606]

To my understanding, to ask the questions you would have to ask to find out if someone has or is planning to have children is illegal. not that you can't ask the question, so much as it doesn't have to be answered. you're not allowed to ask those questions, or have to put anything like it on any resume where I live. I wonder, if it's illegal to ask the question, is it illegal to lie about it? hm.

regardless I think it's pretty shady, if you're going to set rules like that... though it happens a whole lot, so i guess it's not really surprising. not hiring someone because some day they will want kids? that just hurts my brain.

[Sunseeker]

Not denying that, but the worlds population is already large enough, so while I see your point, I also see no value to it in this debate.

Then you fail to grasp a fundamental aspect of society. It isn't about if Earth's population is "big enough", it's about if Germany, or Canada or the USA's population is big enough.

I'm not asking our employees not to have kids, but I am asking for them to have commitments to the company. Again, two different worlds are being discussed here,and I should've made it clear at the start.

Well yeah you basically are, because you're threatening their livelyhood by treating them as lesser employees for doing so. Okay, you're not directly asking them to choose between the company and children, but that is your basic

I'm generally talking about people who are upper management, or on the board of directors. People who on a daily basis run and manage the company, people who if they're gone for 4 months, could fall behind massively in their work, and be a problem to our company.

People who are in those kinds of positions are rarely "gone", as in "drop off the face of the earth" when they want to have kids. That's just not the type of people they are. And assuming their salaries are good, they will usually be able to afford solid support systems, or for the other member of their family to be a stay-at-home parent.

Families create support systems, which lessen the impact of pretty much anything on the day-to-day of other people, businesses and such that are involved. Discouraging families and the creation of those support systems means there is much greater impact.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 02:49 AM ----------

To my understanding, to ask the questions you would have to ask to find out if someone has or is planning to have children is illegal. not that you can't ask the question, so much as it doesn't have to be answered. I wonder, if it's illegal to ask the question, is it illegal to lie about it? hm.

It's illegal to ask. And there is no requirement to answer at all, truthfully or not, to any question asked by a prospective employer. The only thing that's illegal in some places is to lie about past work experience.

[Deleted]

And there is no requirement to answer at all, truthfully or not, to any question asked by a prospective employer.

Technically there is no requirement, but if you lie to a prospective employer in an interview and that lie is then found out, the employer is free to fire you on the spot. As you say, this mostly relates to questions of past employment or qualification, but the fact is that any lie you tell your employer that subsequently leads to you gaining employment is a form of fraud, and your contract with them becomes void.

[Deleted]

For example, in the U.K. the Liberal Democrats want to impose in law, that fathers can also take a certain amount of time off for their child. I mean christ, imagine if you're a small company, 4 people and one is off for 3 months on paternity leave. You're pretty much fucked for those three months!

Are you aware that the low birth rate among nationals is a problem, for example, in the UK? If you are not willing to cooperate in the solution of a country-wide problem, the country might decide that the wealth you produce through your business is not worth the problems you create, and that they can do without you as a hirer, after all.

And yes, if through your hiring practices you are scaring people away from having children, you are part of the cause of the problem.

[KOMO1211]

Technically there is no requirement, but if you lie to a prospective employer in an interview and that lie is then found out, the employer is free to fire you on the spot. As you say, this mostly relates to questions of past employment or qualification, but the fact is that any lie you tell your employer that subsequently leads to you gaining employment is a form of fraud, and your contract with them becomes void.

unless of course you live in the USA which means they can fire you for whatever they want whenever they want :P

[Sunseeker]

Technically there is no requirement, but if you lie to a prospective employer in an interview and that lie is then found out, the employer is free to fire you on the spot. As you say, this mostly relates to questions of past employment or qualification, but the fact is that any lie you tell your employer that subsequently leads to you gaining employment is a form of fraud, and your contract with them becomes void.

Of course they are. In "right-to-work" locations they're also free to fire you on the spot because they don't like the color of shirt you wore.

That's really not how it works in most cases. And as you point out before, the lie has to be discovered for it to be an issue.

[Deezlar]

Hence why my recruiting methods are different. Don't want to answer the question, don't get the job. Simple.

What question though? And where are you based?

The UK law is very clear, but many people do not know their rights. So loads of employers get away with illegal employment practices.
Holiday pay is another big one where companies act illegally.. One company I worked for had every employee on a 8 hour contract, but everyone worked 40+ hours.
When it came to holidays, they were paid 8 hours a week... NOT ONE person in the 15 strong workforce had any idea this was illegal until I arrived and notified the management that they were exploiting people... Happy to say the company "reviewed" this practice and paid everyone what they were owed, but this is happening all over the country.

[Sunseeker]

Hence why my recruiting methods are different. Don't want to answer the question, don't get the job. Simple.

Again, as we've pointed out, this can be incredibly illegal in some places.

It's one thing to skirt the law, it's another to blatantly disregard it because you think you know better.

Sure, you can move off to a place where those sorts of things are OK, but I'm going to wage that in doing so, you're going to lose a lot of the benefits that come from a society that wants to protect people from employers like you.

[Jilor]

As an HR manager for AMC (an American company owned by a Chinese group), I can say with absolute certainty, asking ANY question relating to marriage or involving their family life is absolutely illegal in the US. No matter what you think your rights are, all you have to do is ask the question in the interview and you open yourself up to lawsuits as well as possible sanctions. And I referenced the Chinese part to kill your idea of being based out of somewhere else. If your business is operating in the US, it follows US laws. You don't magically get to ignore the law just because you want to claim your company is based elsewhere.

[Deezlar]

As an HR manager for AMC (an American company owned by a Chinese group), I can say with absolute certainty, asking ANY question relating to marriage or involving their family life is absolutely illegal in the US. No matter what you think your rights are, all you have to do is ask the question in the interview and you open yourself up to lawsuits as well as possible sanctions. And I referenced the Chinese part to kill your idea of being based out of somewhere else. If your business is operating in the US, it follows US laws. You don't magically get to ignore the law just because you want to claim your company is based elsewhere.

So we have it from the UK and the US that this is on the whole, illegal.

I think Germany has some strange laws surrounding parenthood and work rights... Apparently you are allowed to ask about your situation as a parent or your intention to have children, but the employee is well within their rights to lie about it. Even if they are pregnant! And this can have no repercussions on the employee.

I heard that a few years back though so not sure if its the same now..

[Mekh]

So we have it from the UK and the US that this is on the whole, illegal.

I think Germany has some strange laws surrounding parenthood and work rights... Apparently you are allowed to ask about your situation as a parent or your intention to have children, but the employee is well within their rights to lie about it. Even if they are pregnant! And this can have no repercussions on the employee.

I heard that a few years back though so not sure if its the same now..

According to a source from november 2011, this is partially true. Like in other countries, that kind of question simply isn't permitted. But when it's been asked anyway, then - let's be honest here - a "I refuse to answer this." is actually a response to draw conclusions from. So yeah, in that case it's actually allowed to lie here.

[Thelxi]

Money is unethical, being picky about who you hire is smart.

[Sunseeker]

Money is unethical, being picky about who you hire is smart.

Sure, but breaking the law 'cause you've got an ego complex is both stupid and expensive. I've dealt with bosses like that before. They think they can do whatever they want, disregard the laws all because they think they're smarter than everyone else. It usually ends up wasting a lot of time and money for the business, as well as pissing off government officials who then enjoy making your business difficult.

[Mandible]

Same op as: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-their-parents

Anyways, no it's not illegal, but it is a little dirty.

It is illigal in some countries, at least if you can prove it is the case.

[Coraulten]

It should be perfectly allowed, as long as there are good grounds for it.

Refusing to hire someone because they're black for example is not acceptable, but not wanting to hire a mother who needs to take time off of work, while still taking money from your company that you've worked hard for, should be fine.

Essentially, my view is that on the shop front (for example) you're required to serve and help all. You can't refuse entry of someone because of their gender, age, sexual preference or any other factor, but when hiring, you should be free to discriminate as much as you want.

I've worked insanely hard to get my company where it is, and I don't see the value in hiring a women who is pregnant, and will needs months off of work, when I could hire a man who isn't going to go through that.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 10:03 AM ----------



But why is that a problem?

If I hire a pregnant women, she is going to need to take extra precautions at work, need plenty of time off pre-birth and then also take maternity leave. Why should I as the business owner be forced to hire her and then cover those costs?

The same goes for my view on paternity leave. Any father who feels the need to take weeks or months off work for their kid won't be working for me.

Society has deemed it unethical therefor there are laws to forbid it. Could make a similar arguement, why do i have to hire black people, they're going to steal stuff from people? You can't not hire a woman for having kids, but you can fire them for not doing their job because of the kids. It's more or less to stop people like you from discriminating against people based on your personal opinion on a group of people.

[Hyve]

Society has deemed it unethical therefor there are laws to forbid it.

Society is comprised of people who've never had to deal with business, and the lawmakers and politicians who implement these laws are nothing more then school children who have no business knowledge.

The Business Secretary for the UK is Vince Cable, an old man who has extremist liberal views and has never run a business in his life, yet he is the one making foundations for laws and requirements of business.

Because of this, I tend to ignore the majority of the society says about business. Going to work and being paid $5.75 an hour is not business.

why do i have to hire black people, they're going to steal stuff from people? You can't not hire a woman for having kids, but you can fire them for not doing their job because of the kids.

Because the pregnant women will have to take time off of work to go and have her child, recover from the birth and take care of the child. The Black person doesn't need nor is it guaranteed they will still stuff.

One is ignorance, the other is a fact.

It's more or less to stop people like you from discriminating against people based on your personal opinion on a group of people.

It isn't really a personal opinion. A pregnant women is going to have to take time off of work to deal with her child, and as someone who might be involved in the daily operations of the company, and is new to the whole thing, it would be hard to integrate someone, only to have to find a temporarily replacement, so they can go have a child.