Strongest Tank

[Kaidye]

I keep seeing people say "Druids are the worst tank, druids are the squishiest tank, DK's/Palas/Warrs are much better than druids" etc etc etc.

My question is, WHY? I've been playing a druid tank since TBC (was Resto in Vanilla) and I -never- had problems tanking!

We have (in my eyes) the most diverse toolkit - we can avoid damage completely (through Savage Defense, 70% dodge when it's up). We can heal up damage ... and we can reduce the bosses dmg through Toot & Claw.

We've got the highest Armour in the game ... and we have a very good HP pool. Our cooldowns are also extremely good ...
Then again, I haven't raided 25man seriously since WOTLK, but my question still stands. Why are druids considered SO low when in my eyes they are the most balanced tank?

Let me start off by saying I was going to main my bear tank this expac. She was a ton of fun in Wrath and Cata, but their toolkit was gutted in MoP. Instead of Savage Defense proccing a bubble that absorbed physical damage (like a DK Blood Shield), it because dodge. Dodge and avoidance abilities are always considered inferior to mitigation/absorbs when tanking. Your damage intake is unreliable - you could have a great string of dodges or a terrible string of dodges. Bears might have more armor than other tanks, but if they actually do get hit, they get hit a lot more than other tanks do. Their utility is great, yes, but if you are comparing a tank that will reliably survive a 25m heroic encounter week in and week out without deviation to a tank that will mostly survive a 25m heroic encounter (but sometimes gets gibbed hard), which would you take?

Most of the time they are great. It's just not all the time.

[Deleted]

Paladins. DPS, utility and cooldowns.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I would say the strongest tank was the german panther in WWII, but thats just me

Nah, I'd take a Challenger II. Yet to be lost in battle, they can withstand an onslaught of dozens of RPGs and anti-tank missiles.


The strongest tank in WoW is the one with the best player behind the keyboard.

[rated]

not even close to true and it has been shown in this thread and previous threads.

some classes are better simply BECAUSE they do not take an E-athlete to make them work.

/notendthread

The tanking classes have never been more even. The only argument that can be made is some tanks are just better for some bosses than others (and this is true), but in the end the strongest tank is played by the strongest player. Some tanks are harder to play than others, but that is not what this thread is about so its irrelevant.

The only thing this thread has proved is Paladins are popular ATM. All tanks are capable and have cleared heroic content so far this expansion which shows its more about the skill of the individual player and the raid not the fact that one tanking class is just so superior to the others.

[judgementofantonidas]

Nah, I'd take a Challenger II. Yet to be lost in battle, they can withstand an onslaught of dozens of RPGs and anti-tank missiles.


The strongest tank in WoW is the one with the best player behind the keyboard.

the challenger two was not on the battlefield with the german panther. you are comparing apples to donuts.

Currently the competition would be between:

US. M1A2
German Leopard II
British Challenger II
Israeli Merkava
Soviet T-90

SFC J Transue
C Co. 3/103 AR

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 01:11 PM ----------

The tanking classes have never been more even. The only argument that can be made is some tanks are just better for some bosses than others (and this is true), but in the end the strongest tank is played by the strongest player. Some tanks are harder to play than others, but that is not what this thread is about so its irrelevant.

The only thing this thread has proved is Paladins are popular ATM. All tanks are capable and have cleared heroic content so far this expansion which shows its more about the skill of the individual player and the raid not the fact that one tanking class is just so superior to the others.

Your arguement becomes moot if you do not take the disarity in players behind the keyboard out of the equation.

The BEST tanking class can ONLY be determined with equivalent players derivative of the MAJORITY of people playing tank classses behind the keyboard. In otherwords you cut out the world top 100 players and you cut out the LFR heroes. Then and only then can you hold a disscussion on best in class.

[Simulacrum]

The only thing this thread has proved is Paladins are popular ATM. All tanks are capable and have cleared heroic content so far this expansion which shows its more about the skill of the individual player and the raid not the fact that one tanking class is just so superior to the others.

When I see two equally geared and skilled players tanking the same fight, where the paladin takes as much damage as the other guy, but also heals for 80% of the damage they take while the other guy heals maybe 20-30% at best, nevermind everything else that they bring, it doesn't come down to something as banal as player skill. Paladins are just straight-up insanely much more stronger than other tanks for most fights.

The whole "people have cleared heroic content with class/spec X" doesn't mean much when you can 8- or 9-man most heroic modes unless you do it during the first few weeks.

[Nairobi]

The tanking classes have never been more even. The only argument that can be made is some tanks are just better for some bosses than others (and this is true), but in the end the strongest tank is played by the strongest player. Some tanks are harder to play than others, but that is not what this thread is about so its irrelevant.

The only thing this thread has proved is Paladins are popular ATM. All tanks are capable and have cleared heroic content so far this expansion which shows its more about the skill of the individual player and the raid not the fact that one tanking class is just so superior to the others.

This thread is full of opinions on whats strongest and some of those opinions are highly misinformed.

While they certainly have done a good job of refreshing the tank classes and providing mroe parity between them than existed prior, there are undoubtedly "winners" and "losers" in terms of strength, both overall and niche. You (or someone else) may not notice those differences at your level of play, but they most certainly exist.

The BIGGEST difference maker or game breaker is mitigation style. In the new, active mitigation era, boss damage on tanks is balanced around proper, intelligent and well-timed use of our AM systems (ShotR, Stagger, Dodge/heal, Sblock/Sbarr, Death Strike). The dev's did a great job making all tanks roughly equal in terms of average, linear damage, but the problem lies in the fact that REAL damage in a real raid setting is spiky and nonlinear. Examining averages and stochastic damage intake will not paint a proper picture.

Paladins do, undeniably, have the strongest and most reliable AM system in ShotR. This is because you can use it on literally every large, threatening, telegraphed boss damage/special ability that is in this tier or last. Specific shout-outs to Dread Thrash, Snapping Bite, Triple Puncture, Talon Rake.

The issue with avoidance tanks (and avoidance in general) is the misunderstood principle of Total Dmg Redux (TDR). TDR is great when looking at averages and static damage intake. On average, TDR tanks take less overall damage, which means you would think they are the best tanks. The problem lies with the fact that unless that avoidance is at (or damn near) 100%, there is still the RNG factor that exists and haunts them in those large spike moments. Since Blizz made it clear that CTC capping is not possible, there will never be a time that avoidance is more reliable or "safer" than a ShotR in preventing/mitigating damage. Ever.

[Akylios]

When I see two equally geared and skilled players tanking the same fight, where the paladin takes as much damage as the other guy, but also heals for 80% of the damage they take while the other guy heals maybe 20-30% at best...

Those numbers... don't seem right. The only fight I can think of where a main tank could comfortably do 80% of his own healing is Elegon, but even druids can push 70%+ self healing on Elegon if they just spam Frenzied Regeneration on CD.

As a druid tank, it's pretty common for me to do 50%+ of my own healing and I know for a fact DKs can do the same. Not sure about monks and warriors though.

[Dalinos]

Let me start off by saying I was going to main my bear tank this expac. She was a ton of fun in Wrath and Cata, but their toolkit was gutted in MoP. Instead of Savage Defense proccing a bubble that absorbed physical damage (like a DK Blood Shield), it because dodge. Dodge and avoidance abilities are always considered inferior to mitigation/absorbs when tanking. Your damage intake is unreliable - you could have a great string of dodges or a terrible string of dodges. Bears might have more armor than other tanks, but if they actually do get hit, they get hit a lot more than other tanks do. Their utility is great, yes, but if you are comparing a tank that will reliably survive a 25m heroic encounter week in and week out without deviation to a tank that will mostly survive a 25m heroic encounter (but sometimes gets gibbed hard), which would you take?

Most of the time they are great. It's just not all the time.

Noone seems to be linking their armory, for purposes of credentials. Sadbear here .

Well, to be completely fair, I hated the old Savage Defense mechanic. I thought it was shit. I -adored- the inception of Druid tanks during TBC - high HP/High Armour meat-shields, with only Dodge as their avoidance, and threat based on dmg. I -adored- the fact they changed druid tanking back to what it was supposed to be, dodging attacks. I think the Savage defense mechanic is amazing, and trying to keep it at 100% uptime while doing a ton of other things is a hell of alot of fun. You keep saying damage is unpredictable - on the contrary, I will argue that damage druid tanks take might be unpredictable, but is 100% counterable.

Take a look at the T15 2 piece set bonus. Every dodge while SD is active gives a +10% buff to your next frenzied Regen, stacking 10 times. Wanna know what happens on Tortos? 1st 400k hit - dodged. Dodge dodge dodge. melee hit. Dodge dodge. 2nd 400k hit - taken - BOOM 10 stacks Frenzied Regen +450k HP. Then back to dodge dodge dodge. And some moe dodge. Took a hit? BOOM frenzied regen! And, to avoid overhealing, throw a Maul to reduce total rage and Frenzied Regen wit 25 rage + 10 stacks in order to not overheal one bit.

You talk about a series of hits that weren't dodged. Yeah, ok, shit DOES happen, but that's why we got a ton of things to do in order to COUNTER this unlucky streak of hits. Renewal, Barkskin, Might of Ursoc, Berserk and Son of Ursoc, which increase Rage generation therefore allowing us to use more survival abilities, and the list goes on. One of my FAVOURITE things to do when I get a series of unlucky non-dodges and get to <20% HP is tell my healers "DONT WORRY BROS, I GOT THIS" and pop glyphed Might + Renewal + Frenzied Regen. Boom, from 50k HP to 800k in less than 1 GCD (Might, Renewal, FR are all off the GCD).

So, yes, although we might be prone to streaks of unluckiness, we're tanking with 70% dodge + (due to procs of trinkets, Dancing Steel etc) at all times (more or less) and have an arsenal of skills to counter these rare streaks of unluckiness. I'm not convinced we're THAT much worse than other tanks.

Again, link your armories for credentials people >.<

[judgementofantonidas]

Those numbers... don't seem right. The only fight I can think of where a main tank could comfortably do 80% of his own healing is Elegon, but even druids can push 70%+ self healing on Elegon if they just spam Frenzied Regeneration on CD.

As a druid tank, it's pretty common for me to do 50%+ of my own healing and I know for a fact DKs can do the same. Not sure about monks and warriors though.

wind lord. I solo tank and do double the heals of two paladin healers easily.

just an average geared pallytank.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...justice/simple

[Deleted]

I keep seeing people say "Druids are the worst tank, druids are the squishiest tank, DK's/Palas/Warrs are much better than druids" etc etc etc

Druids are not weak at all. They are just weaker than the other tanks looked side by side. That said, I think that druids is one of the strongest off tanks. The best tank pair is imo paladin/warrior, after that paladin/druid. As a paladin I much rather have a druid co-tank than a dk/monk as we work better together.

Druids are not in a bad place. Just not as versitile as a paladin or a warrior. Druids do not have "insane dps" though, or well, all tanks have insane dps, and in comparison druids are quite low to other tanks.

[Gliff]

wind lord. I solo tank and do double the heals of two paladin healers easily.

just an average geared pallytank.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...justice/simple

Pick the one fight your vengeance is almost max the whole fight... Ya base your opinion on 1 abnormal fight.

[judgementofantonidas]

Pick the one fight your vengeance is almost max the whole fight... Ya base your opinion on 1 abnormal fight.

It was the easiest and best example to come to mind. Although it is a fight where a haste built paladin tank can shine there are many more examples even down to something as low as running a five man dungeon.

[Akylios]

Pick the one fight your vengeance is almost max the whole fight... Ya base your opinion on 1 abnormal fight.

It was a fair response by him, he wasn't the one claiming paladins do 80% every fight, but he did point out another fight where they can do insane healing. If I wasn't a druid spamming dodge on Wind Lord, I guess I would have realized it as well.

[lebowski]

Druids are not weak at all. They are just weaker than the other tanks looked side by side. That said, I think that druids is one of the strongest off tanks. The best tank pair is imo paladin/warrior, after that paladin/druid. As a paladin I much rather have a druid co-tank than a dk/monk as we work better together.

Druids are not in a bad place. Just not as versitile as a paladin or a warrior. Druids do not have "insane dps" though, or well, all tanks have insane dps, and in comparison druids are quite low to other tanks.

Monk/pally is an incredible comp. Absolutely bogus raid healing going out, no shared gear at all. Even after the statue nerf, have a fight that you three heal? With pally/monk you are two healing it now.

[Deleted]

Monk/pally is an incredible comp. Absolutely bogus raid healing going out, no shared gear at all. Even after the statue nerf, have a fight that you three heal? With pally/monk you are two healing it now.

Well, no gear issues with Pally + druid/warrior either. Monk is probably my third choice, but still feel like a druid/warrior works better with paladin. Safe Guard is op.

[Kaidye]

Noone seems to be linking their armory, for purposes of credentials.

My "credentials" are in my sig.... Either way, ignoring facts because you don't see someone's armory means you are already going to ignore what people have to say unless it meshes with what you want.

... I think the Savage defense mechanic is amazing, and trying to keep it at 100% uptime while doing a ton of other things is a hell of alot of fun. You keep saying damage is unpredictable - on the contrary, I will argue that damage druid tanks take might be unpredictable, but is 100% counterable.

Take a look at the T15 2 piece set bonus. ...

You talk about a series of hits that weren't dodged. Yeah, ok, shit DOES happen, but that's why we got a ton of things to do in order to COUNTER this unlucky streak of hits. Renewal, Barkskin, Might of Ursoc, Berserk and Son of Ursoc, which increase Rage generation therefore allowing us to use more survival abilities, and the list goes on. ...

So, yes, although we might be prone to streaks of unluckiness, we're tanking with 70% dodge + (due to procs of trinkets, Dancing Steel etc) at all times (more or less) and have an arsenal of skills to counter these rare streaks of unluckiness. I'm not convinced we're THAT much worse than other tanks.

You are saying the same thing I said (dodge means unreliabilty), but arguing that taking the damage and then healing it up afterwards means that the damage taken doesn't matter. You might have an arsenal of skills to counter your unlucky streaks, but often times you need those cooldowns for specific parts of the fight (and won't have them when those "unlucky streaks" happen).

Going back to what I said in my first post: which tank would you rather have, the one that doesn't take the damage at all or the one that does and can heal back some of it afterwards? The most important thing as a tank is managing your damage taken; the tank that can do this the best and the most often wins. You are asking why bears aren't preferred. That is why. No one is saying they are bad or terrible tanks - they can manage the content perfectly well. Other tanks are just more reliable and predictable at damage intake, especially on 25 heroic content. Bears are the only tanks with an avoidance mastery/avoidance-based playstyle. Mitigation > avoidance 100% of the time. 'tis just how it is.

[kaiadam]

Druids are weak due to non-melee boss abilities. I believe tank damage is balanced (somewhat) when you're looking at a constant string of autoattacks. Druid dodges the most, and has the highest armor, but has no reliable way of actually reducing the damage. If the druid gets hit, he takes it to the face. Paladins and warriors can both reduce incoming damage, and dks always have a shield. And monks have stagger. So despite having the highest armor of all tanks by a fairly large margin, druids take the most damage from telegraphed attacks.

This was bad last tier when sha thrashed and killed my bear through full mastery gems and 750k hp every time he connected all 3 hits - it was basically every other third attempt or so it'd happen and we'd have to wipe because well, rng is fun. This tier is worse because of the number of abilities that just completely ignore armor yet can still be mitigated such as triple puncture, snapping bite, talon rake, hard glare, etc. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be trying to tank Ji-Kun 25H on a bear. First talon rake deals 500k damage (barkskin), second rake 750 (last stand), third rake 1 mil (shieldwall), fourth rake ... death. And even those the druid survives he's alive by 200k or less hp. By comparison, a monk can self-cd up to 7 talon rakes without dying, and for the first 4 or so, even take under 200k hp damage per rake.

Anyway, paladin seems to the best since they can mitigate all of these abilities, self heal the most, and has the smoothest damage intake.

[lebowski]

Well, no gear issues with Pally + druid/warrior either. Monk is probably my third choice, but still feel like a druid/warrior works better with paladin. Safe Guard is op.

Ugh I do love Safeguard. Not trying to hate on the other tank classes, its true that they are more balanced than they've ever been. I'm just starting to get a little disheartened that we are already a full tier in and people still don't trust monk tanks even though they've been exceptionally viable from launch. Great scaling, great tools, strong dps (especially AoE), amazing mobility, highest avoidance on top of Stagger...yeah you might scare the healer a little when you spike to 20%, but that 600k guard you just popped is going to provide all the time you need to get back up.

[Deleted]

Ugh I do love Safeguard. Not trying to hate on the other tank classes, its true that they are more balanced than they've ever been. I'm just starting to get a little disheartened that we are already a full tier in and people still don't trust monk tanks even though they've been exceptionally viable from launch. Great scaling, great tools, strong dps (especially AoE), amazing mobility, highest avoidance on top of Stagger...yeah you might scare the healer a little when you spike to 20%, but that 600k guard you just popped is going to provide all the time you need to get back up.

Well, not that I do not trust monk tank. I actually think monks are the second strongest tank if looked at individually. I just think that warriors and druids synergize better with paladin.

But for me for co-tanks, it just goes like warrior>druid>monk>>>>>>>>>>dk.

As long as I don't have a dk with me, im happy. And same thing there, DKs are not bad tanks individually, they just work horribly with a paladin co-tank compared to other tanks.