1. #1

    Haste Cap for Enhancer?

    Hello

    My question is , does enhancer have a Haste breakpoint when mastery gets better than haste?
    My enhancer has 10892 Haste. But Sometimes i think there should be a point , that mastery should be better than haste.

    Sorry for my bad english :XXX

    Would be nice if someone has an option.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Durio View Post
    Hello

    My question is , does enhancer have a Haste breakpoint when mastery gets better than haste?
    My enhancer has 10892 Haste. But Sometimes i think there should be a point , that mastery should be better than haste.

    Sorry for my bad english :XXX

    Would be nice if someone has an option.
    Depends on your talent choices. Unleashed fury Mastery > haste; Primal elementalist haste>mastery.

  3. #3
    I dare assume he knows different setups to yield different secondary preferences. What I think he wants to know if there is a point at which, through having certain amounts of all three secondary stats (haste/crit/mastery) cause haste to fall in it's use.

    Cant say I know the answer, but from what I experienced in the past, enh seems to be a spec that keeps getting more and more out of haste, the higher the amount it has.
    Well, that's just my take on the thing. Haste became more and more useful from mid-colloseum onwards in wotlk and was indisputable no.1 stat even at BiS icc end-gear.
    I dont think it'll be any different now. There wont be any haste breakpoints at where haste stops being awesome, it'll only get better with improving gear.

    For haste to be actually viable enough though, you have to reach a point at which haste becomes more attractive to gem/enchant/gear towards than mastery.
    This in turn requires factors that benefit from haste.

    More haste currently means:
    -more LS procs with UF:WF
    -more MSW procs (with the t15 2pc and many sources of haste through gear and stuff like bloodlust, elemental mastery/ancestral swiftness, raidbuffs, trinkets, troll berserker etc., MSW's priority rank rose as it would otherwhise mean more wasted charges than before (I've seen priority lists with MSW above SS and LL, so, similar to wotlk, it would mean that haste would improve on that high prio dmg source)
    -more legendary gem procs
    -faster Feral Spirit/Fire Elemental Totem attacks
    -FS scaling with it (does it? I think it does)
    -more auto attacks/ wf/ft weapon procs

    While most of these parts where already avaiable since early MoP, making haste a rather good secondary stat the first time since wotlk, with the first legendary gems rolling in, it suddenly became possible for haste to topple mastery in dps gain (currently mainly the case with PE builds it appears).
    When that happens, people will gear/gem more towards, increasing its value even more.

    With more and more haste from higher and higher ilvl gear, as well as more powerful legendary gems, it could be possible for haste to overtake mastery even with UF builds, and in PE builds even overtake 1/2 agi, as that would be the breakpoint in terms of gemming, where secondary stats take up half as much stat points.

    If that point where reached, people would get even more haste through gems/enchants, raising haste even further.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    Depends on your talent choices. Unleashed fury Mastery > haste; Primal elementalist haste>mastery.
    Thats not quite right, you don't go for Haste on PE until you get to about 525-527 because you first wont have enough crit to get enough Flurrly uptime, and Haste looses it's value when you dont have like 100% uptime on the boss, the difference at most peoples gear is about +-1k if you loose uptime on the boss the difference grows in favor of mastery.

    So i wouldn't recommend haste for ppl that do not already have al lot of normal tf pieces or at least fully upgraded 5.1 gear and at least a few heroic pieces from ToT.

    Wishes

  5. #5
    Your ilvl ranges are off. SimCraft is updated now with the new RPPM changes. This made haste the go to stat for me at 517 ilvl. It's possible it's viable even lower but I don't know since I had already surpassed that point.

    We had enough crit at like ilvl 500 to reforge all crit to something else (eg. mastery) so crit is not what's holding us back.

    The biggest consideration to going haste is a question of how badly you need AoE. Haste only minorly increases AoE from base with more MW procs but you lose a ton of FN and MT damage. if you are hitting an AoE bottleneck gem/forge mastery. If you are hitting a single target bottleneck gem/forge haste. All depends on what your are assigned to do.
    Last edited by Ryethe; 2013-03-20 at 02:53 PM.

  6. #6
    No the thing is that haste is weaker the moment you have to move, and the iLvl i mentioned are those where you can move and haste will still win against mastery.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Redanqt View Post
    No the thing is that haste is weaker the moment you have to move, and the iLvl i mentioned are those where you can move and haste will still win against mastery.
    It's not lack of movement that make haste godly, it's PE buffed in 5.2, good wolves scaling and RPPM effects. These are largely unaffected by movement.

    The decision is purely single target vs. AoE.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    For haste to be actually viable enough though, you have to reach a point at which haste becomes more attractive to gem/enchant/gear towards than mastery.
    This in turn requires factors that benefit from haste.

    More haste currently means:
    -more LS procs with UF:WF
    -more MSW procs (with the t15 2pc and many sources of haste through gear and stuff like bloodlust, elemental mastery/ancestral swiftness, raidbuffs, trinkets, troll berserker etc., MSW's priority rank rose as it would otherwhise mean more wasted charges than before (I've seen priority lists with MSW above SS and LL, so, similar to wotlk, it would mean that haste would improve on that high prio dmg source)
    -more legendary gem procs
    -faster Feral Spirit/Fire Elemental Totem attacks
    -FS scaling with it (does it? I think it does)
    -more auto attacks/ wf/ft weapon procs
    The fact that Haste effects so few sources of damage (and more MW5 procs is not very significant cause of our Tier bonus), plus you trade off mastery which leads to weaker AoE as someone pointed out..... leads me to believe that its not really worth stacking Haste, especially at the expense of other stats. Finding a good balance of all 3 is prob the best, with emphasis on Mastery.

    I am sure there is some optimal haste % breakpoint amount that we should try to cap though and would be interested to see some numbers on what that could be.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    The fact that Haste effects so few sources of damage (and more MW5 procs is not very significant cause of our Tier bonus), plus you trade off mastery which leads to weaker AoE as someone pointed out..... leads me to believe that its not really worth stacking Haste, especially at the expense of other stats. Finding a good balance of all 3 is prob the best, with emphasis on Mastery.

    I am sure there is some optimal haste % breakpoint amount that we should try to cap though and would be interested to see some numbers on what that could be.
    Well, its really not just a few sources, even before 5.2 the value of haste wasn't that far behind, for me it was maybe 80% or so. Enter 5.2 with the buffs to AS, PE and the move to RPPM for the legendary meta, weapon enchants, and trinkets -- all that adds up to a big boost in haste's value. Likewise, UE was nerfed and we'll be losing T14 4p which will lower the relative value of mastery. Your AE will be a little weaker, but it doesn't matter when hardly any fights require significant AE (at least on normal).

  10. #10
    I was under the impression that, the more you had of stat A then the better stat B became. Did that change with the patch?

    I figured the biggest benefit haste has atm is all the PPM madness that seems to be the theme of this patch. I figured I´ll give haste priority from this point on but keep mastery as high as possible.

    In the end, all this "all out haste" builds amount to is reforging into it when possible (still have to cap hit and exp) and gemming agi-haste instead of agi-mastery. Enchants pretty much stay the same.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    I was under the impression that, the more you had of stat A then the better stat B became. Did that change with the patch?

    I figured the biggest benefit haste has atm is all the PPM madness that seems to be the theme of this patch. I figured I´ll give haste priority from this point on but keep mastery as high as possible.

    In the end, all this "all out haste" builds amount to is reforging into it when possible (still have to cap hit and exp) and gemming agi-haste instead of agi-mastery. Enchants pretty much stay the same.
    There is a haste glove enchant you can switch to.

    You are correct in that RPPM is driving this madness (that and the PE buff). You are also correct in that more haste makes more mastery/crit better than the previous points and vice versa but from what we can currently tell there aren't any major points where you want to, say, drop 1k haste and grab 1k mastery. It's pretty much all or nothing right now.

    The difference for me between gemming 320 haste and 160 agi was 100 DPS in simcraft at this point so I've stuck with gemming full agi and agi/haste hybrids. So comparable, but not worth switching (yet). Could definitely see it come into its own once you have a second RPPM trinket and the meta.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Well, its really not just a few sources, even before 5.2 the value of haste wasn't that far behind, for me it was maybe 80% or so. Enter 5.2 with the buffs to AS, PE and the move to RPPM for the legendary meta, weapon enchants, and trinkets -- all that adds up to a big boost in haste's value. Likewise, UE was nerfed and we'll be losing T14 4p which will lower the relative value of mastery. Your AE will be a little weaker, but it doesn't matter when hardly any fights require significant AE (at least on normal).
    I'm still skeptical.....even stuff like how Haste's effect is drastically reduced when you can't stay on target for long periods of time but the damage you can still do when running around or only for short periods of time is buffed by Mastery (like dots, instant abilities like ULE, shocks, stuff like LL....all buffed by mastery).

    I would aim for some personal cap, for example 10% and then with AS talent for extra 10% melee haste you have 20% haste total and then I would just focus on stacking mastery. I am still interested in seeing if their happens to be some magic breakpoint where once you reach a certain lvl of haste there is a noticeable difference in DPS.....so I can aim for that amount only and continue stacking mastery after that point.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I'm still skeptical.....even stuff like how Haste's effect is drastically reduced when you can't stay on target for long periods of time but the damage you can still do when running around or only for short periods of time is buffed by Mastery (like dots, instant abilities like ULE, shocks, stuff like LL....all buffed by mastery).

    I would aim for some personal cap, for example 10% and then with AS talent for extra 10% melee haste you have 20% haste total and then I would just focus on stacking mastery. I am still interested in seeing if their happens to be some magic breakpoint where once you reach a certain lvl of haste there is a noticeable difference in DPS.....so I can aim for that amount only and continue stacking mastery after that point.
    Haste is not just buffing our Auto Attack damage and MW procs. It also does:
    1. More trinket RPPM procs = more agility = more dot damage, more instant ability damage, more LL damages, etc. This is honestly really key. When you gem haste you aren't just getting haste you are also getting agility. Welcome to the world of RPPM.
    2. More meta RPPM procs also = more meta procs which also procs off most of the abilities you listed.
    3. PE is largely unaffected by movement and scales with your haste.

    From what I've seen RPPM proc rates never stop to scaling at upwards at the same static rate (they only cap if you had enough haste to make each hit be a proc, which you won't hit).

    All I'm trying to get at is that people are assuming that haste is good for us for the same reasons it was good for us in WotLK which is certainly not the case. The situations and causes of haste are entirely different. Haste was bad for movement back then but that is not true to the same degree in 5.2.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryethe View Post
    Haste is not just buffing our Auto Attack damage and MW procs. It also does:
    1. More trinket RPPM procs = more agility = more dot damage, more instant ability damage, more LL damages, etc. This is honestly really key. When you gem haste you aren't just getting haste you are also getting agility. Welcome to the world of RPPM.
    2. More meta RPPM procs also = more meta procs which also procs off most of the abilities you listed.
    3. PE is largely unaffected by movement and scales with your haste.

    From what I've seen RPPM proc rates never stop to scaling at upwards at the same static rate (they only cap if you had enough haste to make each hit be a proc, which you won't hit).

    All I'm trying to get at is that people are assuming that haste is good for us for the same reasons it was good for us in WotLK which is certainly not the case. The situations and causes of haste are entirely different. Haste was bad for movement back then but that is not true to the same degree in 5.2.
    To expand on this, it's not just PE, but all of our cooldowns (Ascendance + Feral Spirit + Earth Elemental + Fire Elemental) which drive a large portion of our haste scaling and aren't affected much by movement (unless you use them poorly).

    In fact, last time I checked, those cooldowns alone accounted for 40-45% of our total overall haste scaling. Auto-attacks + windfury/flametongue procs only account for 25-30% of haste scaling.

    Then you consider the non-cooldown sources of damage we have that aren't affected by movement but still scale with haste (flame shock DoT ticks + lightning bolt w/ SWG or UL)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    To expand on this, it's not just PE, but all of our cooldowns (Ascendance + Feral Spirit + Earth Elemental + Fire Elemental) which drive a large portion of our haste scaling and aren't affected much by movement (unless you use them poorly).

    In fact, last time I checked, those cooldowns alone accounted for 40-45% of our total overall haste scaling. Auto-attacks + windfury/flametongue procs only account for 25-30% of haste scaling.

    Then you consider the non-cooldown sources of damage we have that aren't affected by movement but still scale with haste (flame shock DoT ticks + lightning bolt w/ SWG or UL)
    Yes ty, I completely forgot to mention those areas as well.

    I just really want to get away from people railing on haste for outdated reasons that don't apply to the current game.

    Right now the only reason to go mastery over haste is a) lower gear levels, b) guaranteed sustained aoe damage, although there will be average cases where a haste build will out perform a mastery build due to a higher chance of trinket procs which you need them for AoE. All depends on if you are capable of taking the risk or need the guaranteed damage.

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