Just getting the feet wet

[tyrlaan]

My wife and I might soon be purchasing new PCs. I know I'm long overdue ("rocking" a Dell XPS 410 with some upgrades) and my wife isn't far behind. What I'm trying to get my head around before digging deeper is where to sent the benchmark.

Ultimately, I'd be looking for something that plays WoW at or close to max settings without punishing my framerate. Dipping fps into the 20s-30s when doing 25s is acceptable to me.

Which build suggestions should I be looking at to get a rough idea on costs before getting into too many particulars? Dolphin/Marest's Budget Gaming 720?

[googz]

Please have a look at this sticky.

[tyrlaan]

I looked at the sticky before posting. I didn't go into those details because I'm looking for rough ideas now, not specifics beyond what I posted. I'm just trying to get a gauge on the "templates" posted here.

[yurano]

Ultimately, I'd be looking for something that plays WoW at or close to max settings without punishing my framerate. Dipping fps into the 20s-30s when doing 25s is acceptable to me.

Which build suggestions should I be looking at to get a rough idea on costs before getting into too many particulars? Dolphin/Marest's Budget Gaming 720?

Seeing as how you're looking for close to maximum and not absolute maximum with allowances for lower FPS in 25m, a $700 is roughly what you should be looking at.

A couple of points to note:

1) WoW plays better on Nvidia graphics cards
2) Everyone has to turn down Shadows
3) WoW Ultra minus shadows in 25m requires a 3570K OC and a 660 ~$800 build
4) 3570K OC is very important to getting good frames
5) Marest's build prices seem to be slightly outdated
6) Microcenter's deals makes a i5-3570K OC + 660 build possible for about $600-700

You can get what you're looking for with about a $600 budget.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i5-3470 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($188.79 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI B75MA-E33 Micro ATX LGA1155 Motherboard ($56.98 @ Outlet PC)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($47.98 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($69.98 @ Outlet PC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 660 2GB Video Card ($199.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design Core 1000 MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($36.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 430W 80 PLUS Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($19.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $620.70
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-03-23 22:03 EDT-0400)

[chazus]

A couple things for that build.

1) You will need an OS. So add $90 to that build.
2) I recommend against getting the Corsair Builder. Simply too many people reporting problems and poor quality. Even at that price.

Otherwise it's a very, very solid build and will play wow enjoyably.

[glo]

Yeah, definitely wouldn't stick a 384w PSU in a gaming rig. It Might be ok for that exact setup right now, but will leave zero room for upgrades later.

[docterfreeze]

I would recommend an Antec 550w basiq for that build, I got it for a build similar to yours. Modular too.

[yurano]

Yeah, definitely wouldn't stick a 384w PSU in a gaming rig. It Might be ok for that exact setup right now, but will leave zero room for upgrades later.

Take a look at the 680 in a 3930K rig @ 4.3 Ghz consuming only 362W at the wall. I would say that a 384W is sufficient for a budget build. If you're building a $1000 tower, there's no reason to get the CX430. At $600, a CX430 PSU makes sense because it allows you to get nicer performance components without breaking the bank.

Most people building at $600 aren't going to be upgrading their rigs whatsoever. At the most, it would be a graphics card swap 2 years down the line. Chances are, a user isn't going to swap from a 660 to a 780 and vastly increase his power consumption. Instead, the most logical swap would be a 660 to a 760 or a 860, increasing performance without increasing power draw.

I would recommend an Antec 550w basiq for that build, I got it for a build similar to yours. Modular too.

The Antec 550W Basiq is also $67, quite ugly and overkill for a non-OC Intel Ivy Bridge build.

Instead of everyone jumping the gun encouraging the OP to pay an arm and a leg for a PSU, the next step up from a CX 430 @ $20 would be a XFX 550W @ $55 which can support high end single card OC rigs.

[chazus]

Take a look at the 680 in a 3930K rig @ 4.3 Ghz consuming only 362W at the wall. I would say that a 384W is sufficient for a budget build

I have had too many professional complaints about the CX Builder class power supplies, regardless of actual delivered power or amperage, to recommend one.

[glo]

Take a look at the 680 in a 3930K rig @ 4.3 Ghz consuming only 362W at the wall. I would say that a 384W is sufficient for a budget build. If you're building a $1000 tower, there's no reason to get the CX430. At $600, a CX430 PSU makes sense because it allows you to get nicer performance components without breaking the bank.

Most people building at $600 aren't going to be upgrading their rigs whatsoever. At the most, it would be a graphics card swap 2 years down the line. Chances are, a user isn't going to swap from a 660 to a 780 and vastly increase his power consumption. Instead, the most logical swap would be a 660 to a 760 or a 860, increasing performance without increasing power draw.



The Antec 550W Basiq is also $67, quite ugly and overkill for a non-OC Intel Ivy Bridge build.

Instead of everyone jumping the gun encouraging the OP to pay an arm and a leg for a PSU, the next step up from a CX 430 @ $20 would be a XFX 550W @ $55 which can support high end single card OC rigs.

I suggest you research capacitor degradation as well as the unit you're suggesting. There's a reason why it's 20 bucks (it's junk).

Also, the bench you're showing is done on a test bench without case fans (3-5w a pop), a single HDD (additionals are going to be a couple watts per), no additional USB devices (charging your phone eats up 7w~, external drives around 8), etc etc. You simply can't cut it that close, there needs to be headroom. To go as far and say that it's fine since OP will never upgrade past low to low-mid end parts is also ignorant. You don't know what they're going to do, and if they did, they would have to go out and buy a new PSU regardless.

[yurano]

I have had too many professional complaints about the CX Builder class power supplies, regardless of actual delivered power or amperage, to recommend one.

I hope you realize that of all the CX series, only the CX 430 V2 edition was ever vetted (jonnyguru in this case). The other editions were built on pretty terribly. Using other CX models to assert the capability of the CX 430 doesn't make sense as different PSUs in the same line could be built by different manufacturers, built to different specifications or built off different platforms. We expect as consumers that all products of a brand has similar quality and even more so within a product line; however, this doesn't necessarily hold true as with the case of the CX 430.

Moreover, there has been 3 editions of the CX line. The newest third edition has only recently come out in the last few months, fixing a lot of problems with the CX PSUs at higher wattages. The newest CX 430 still follows the quality of the older CX 430 V2 which is vetted.

Unless these professional complaints were directed towards these newest models, your assertions are about as good as saying TX PSUs are good because they're Seasonic (when in fact we know that the newest models are CWT).

I suggest you research capacitor degradation as well as the unit you're suggesting. There's a reason why it's 20 bucks (it's junk).

Its 20 bucks because its on sale. I suggest you research some of the glowing reviews the CX 430 has received in the last year or so.

Also, the bench you're showing is done on a test bench without case fans (3-5w a pop), a single HDD (additionals are going to be a couple watts per), no additional USB devices (charging your phone eats up 7w~, external drives around 8), etc etc. You simply can't cut it that close, there needs to be headroom. To go as far and say that it's fine since OP will never upgrade past low to low-mid end parts is also ignorant. You don't know what they're going to do, and if they did, they would have to go out and buy a new PSU regardless.

False. The test was done in a full tower case: Thermaltake Spedo Advance. 2x 120mm, 1x140mm, 2x230mm fans. I think it would suffice to say that the increased power consumption of a 3930K OC compared to a i5-3470 will overcompensate for the additional peripherals such as HDDs and charging several USB devices.

By the way, both the i5-3470 and 660 are middle-high end parts, not low to low-mid end parts. By saving some money on non-performance parts like the PSU, while still maintaining an adequate environment for performance parts, the OP is able to siphon that money in getting better performance components. Had the OP instead gone with a $50 PSU and cheaper GPU (650 Ti or 7850), he would be worse off and much more likely to need to upgrade his rig in the future.

Now lets be honest, in a $600 rig, whats the chance of upgrading to a $400+ card in the future? Making the assertion that a user will most likely upgrade to a higher tier card of a subsequent generation is misinformed. Like I said before, 660 will probably upgrade to 760 or 860 instead of 780 or 880. If the OP was to make this upgrade (say he quits WoW and wants to play BF4) whats to say adding a $40-50 PSU (on sale) would make much of a difference when purchasing a $400 card? The most cost effective route is to purchase the $20 CX 430 because we know for a fact that it is sufficient for the rig listed. More often than not, paying more for upgradability up front ends up as a waste of money. The most poignant example of wasted futureproofing is going for a SLI/CF capable rig without clear intention of adding a second card in the near future (within 1 yr).

[chazus]

I haven't seen any glowing reviews of the CX 430, however I know it's the same line as all the other poor CX models, with the exception of the CX 400, which is a different manufacturer and different line (for some reason).

Not that I'm saying they aren't reliable, but I've never heard of jonnyguru, and couldn't find any info regarding said reviews since their website is currently dead. But I haven't seen any good reviews, and only complaints about the CX line, and the 430 in every iteration.

[Deleted]

We've had this debate before about the CX 430 PSU. The last debate was about using it in a HTPC build and it was argued that it was not fit for purpose.

At the end of the week there will be three PC's in my house running an 7870XT, i5 3470 and 8GB of RAM with 1 HDD.

One is already running and has been stable for around 3 months. It's using a OCZ Mod Extreme 500W (2.5 years old, definitely degraded and made by Sirtec)

The other two will be using a Thermaltake TR2 550W PSU (currently powering a Sapphire 7870 XT on an old AMD machine 2.5 years old and it's made by CWT) and the other will also be using an OCZ Mod Extreme 500W PSU (also 2.5 years old).

That system mentioned in yurano's post above will require less power and will probably be served very well by the CX 430 PSU which is arguably the better PSU in the round up of PSUs i've mentioned given their origins and given their condition and age.


Reviews here

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6013/3...1-cheap-psus/3 - June 2012

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...ly-Review/1284 - May 2011

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory5&reid=239 - May 2011

[yurano]

I haven't seen any glowing reviews of the CX 430

CX 430

Hardware Secrets - Golden Award

Jonnyguru's site seems to be broken but google cache - Jonnyguru Recommended 9/10

Techpowerup - Highly recommended

Kitguru - Must Have Award "Kitguru says: The bargain PSU of the year, without compromising on quality."

however I know it's the same line as all the other poor CX models, with the exception of the CX 400, which is a different manufacturer and different line (for some reason).

Just because several PSUs from a line is bad, doesn't necessitate that other PSUs of a line is bad. They could be built off of different platforms yet named the same.

Not that I'm saying they aren't reliable, but I've never heard of jonnyguru, and couldn't find any info regarding said reviews since their website is currently dead.

Jonnyguru is one of the most trusted sources for PSU reviews?

But I haven't seen any good reviews, and only complaints about the CX line, and the 430 in every iteration.

So every time someone complains about a CX 430, you make sure to ask them that the model is either the V2 or newest edition right? It couldn't have been that it was one of the original CX 430s that didn't make the cut right?

Even then, your assertion is quite anecdotal.

[chazus]

you make sure to ask them that the model is either the V2 or newest edition right? It couldn't have been that it was one of the original CX 430s that didn't make the cut right?

Even then, your assertion is quite anecdotal.

From what I've heard, the V2's were still having issues (or maybe they were confused about what the V2s were)
And yes, my information is mostly anecdotal, but when just about every person I trust for information says they're crappy, I'd rather err on the side of caution than not.

[glo]

I hope you realize that of all the CX series, only the CX 430 V2 edition was ever vetted (jonnyguru in this case). The other editions were built on pretty terribly. Using other CX models to assert the capability of the CX 430 doesn't make sense as different PSUs in the same line could be built by different manufacturers, built to different specifications or built off different platforms. We expect as consumers that all products of a brand has similar quality and even more so within a product line; however, this doesn't necessarily hold true as with the case of the CX 430.

Moreover, there has been 3 editions of the CX line. The newest third edition has only recently come out in the last few months, fixing a lot of problems with the CX PSUs at higher wattages. The newest CX 430 still follows the quality of the older CX 430 V2 which is vetted.

Unless these professional complaints were directed towards these newest models, your assertions are about as good as saying TX PSUs are good because they're Seasonic (when in fact we know that the newest models are CWT).



Its 20 bucks because its on sale. I suggest you research some of the glowing reviews the CX 430 has received in the last year or so.



False. The test was done in a full tower case: Thermaltake Spedo Advance. 2x 120mm, 1x140mm, 2x230mm fans. I think it would suffice to say that the increased power consumption of a 3930K OC compared to a i5-3470 will overcompensate for the additional peripherals such as HDDs and charging several USB devices.

By the way, both the i5-3470 and 660 are middle-high end parts, not low to low-mid end parts. By saving some money on non-performance parts like the PSU, while still maintaining an adequate environment for performance parts, the OP is able to siphon that money in getting better performance components. Had the OP instead gone with a $50 PSU and cheaper GPU (650 Ti or 7850), he would be worse off and much more likely to need to upgrade his rig in the future.

Now lets be honest, in a $600 rig, whats the chance of upgrading to a $400+ card in the future? Making the assertion that a user will most likely upgrade to a higher tier card of a subsequent generation is misinformed. Like I said before, 660 will probably upgrade to 760 or 860 instead of 780 or 880. If the OP was to make this upgrade (say he quits WoW and wants to play BF4) whats to say adding a $40-50 PSU (on sale) would make much of a difference when purchasing a $400 card? The most cost effective route is to purchase the $20 CX 430 because we know for a fact that it is sufficient for the rig listed. More often than not, paying more for upgradability up front ends up as a waste of money. The most poignant example of wasted futureproofing is going for a SLI/CF capable rig without clear intention of adding a second card in the near future (within 1 yr).

It's a 384w PSU for a gaming rig. A 384w PSU for gaming purposes is stupid, no matter which way you cut it.

This rig I'm on now started out as a G530 and HD 6750 by the way. You still have no idea what the person is going to do in the future. Suggesting you somehow magically know is again, ignorant.

[yurano]

From what I've heard, the V2's were still having issues (or maybe they were confused about what the V2s were)
And yes, my information is mostly anecdotal, but when just about every person I trust for information says they're crappy, I'd rather err on the side of caution than not.

Except the CX 430 V2 is listed on the recommended list which has been vetted by veteran custom builders and reputable hardware sites. I much rather believe exceptionally experienced users who've based their decision on more than just anecdotal evidence.

It's a 384w PSU for a gaming rig. A 384w PSU for gaming purposes is stupid, no matter which way you cut it.

This rig I'm on now started out as a G530 and HD 6750 by the way. You still have no idea what the person is going to do in the future. Suggesting you somehow magically know is again, ignorant.

And assuming that everyone magically makes a G530 + 6750 to a i5-2500K OC + 7970 Ghz upgrade is also ignorant. Especially when such an upgrade would cost at least $200 + $120 + $30 + $400 = $750 and you're asserting that someone doing such an upgrade couldn't possibly have sprung another $50 for a new PSU to go long with it.

The reason the CX 430 was chosen is because it is suitable for the build and saves quite a bit of money. Trying to assert the fact that 384W isn't enough for a gaming build because someone might upgrade way beyond their original build (tier wise) as a reason why you shouldn't get the CX 430 is silly.

[glo]

Except the CX 430 V2 is listed on the recommended list which has been vetted by veteran custom builders and reputable hardware sites. I much rather believe exceptionally experienced users who've based their decision on more than just anecdotal evidence.



And assuming that everyone magically makes a G530 + 6750 to a i5-2500K OC + 7970 Ghz upgrade is also ignorant. Especially when such an upgrade would cost at least $200 + $120 + $30 + $400 = $750 and you're asserting that someone doing such an upgrade couldn't possibly have sprung another $50 for a new PSU to go long with it.

The reason the CX 430 was chosen is because it is suitable for the build and saves quite a bit of money. Trying to assert the fact that 384W isn't enough for a gaming build because someone might upgrade way beyond their original build (tier wise) as a reason why you shouldn't get the CX 430 is silly.

All it would take is an overclocked 3570k in that build to put it over that PSU. Or is an i5 too much of an upgrade now too?

My upgrades weren't magic either, I just switched gaming platforms from my previous laptop to my desktop. You know, plausible situations and all.

[Lemmiwink]

I actually agree with Glo here. I have a CX430v2 in my steambox and it's great in combination with a 3570k and a gtx660. Both are overclocked, the i5 @4.4GHz and the GTX660 at 1175MHZ/6900MHZvram and power target of 112%. The PSU isn't even breaking a sweat on that setup. The reason I agree with Glo is; While my steambox is not a subject of upgrades, his main gaming rig is. For a main rig I would calculate in a 30-40% headroom. This is not to make his build more expensive but to save him a few bucks should he want to upgrade his video card after some time.

[tyrlaan]

Hi all,
Thanks much for the info and ongoing discussion - much appreciated!

Looking at these numbers, this seems quite reasonable for us to do x2, though we might have to get different cases just to tell them apart

Anyway, since this went into particulars, and I'd definitely like to talk particulars now, here's some additional info:

• We have a family edition copy of Win7, so I presume we'd just reinstall this on the new PCs, so no new OS required (tho question - it's the upgrade edition, so will I have to literally put on XP just so I can then go to Win 7??)
• I've currently got 2 7200rpm drives in my machine. One is a 320GB Hitachi, the other is a 1TB WD. I'll definitely keep the 1TB around, though I'm tempted to replace the Hitachi with a WD as part of the PC replacement. On the other hand, since I have the 1TB drive, I figure I could go with a smaller drive for OS. (note I currently have about 500GB of music on the 1TB drive, so I don't think I'd want to put the OS etc. on that as well)
• I've upgraded the RAM and GPU on this machine and I'd entertain doing the same in future machines, especially considering how much an impact the GPU can have
• Current GPU is a GTS250, so I assume it'd not worth keeping around. I can't remember the spec's on my RAM, only that I raised it up to 4MB
• Everything else is factory based on the XPS410 specs, which, since I bought it in 2006, probably means it's mostly worthless. Though I assume I can swipe it's CD/DVD drive

Thanks all!