Whatever happened to Warhammer online?

[Weezing]

I care for PvP and I have to wait for a new PvP MMO, because current ones suck on it. WAR had the best PvP so far. Probably my interest in games won't live long enough so I could experience a great pvp mmo once again Oh well.

Even when i'm 80 years old, I HIGHLY doubt my love for video games will ever die. And I am 25 at the moment and the feeling of getting a brand new game that I have been waiting for still feels just as awsome as the time I bought Zelda for the N64 as a kid.

[Mukki]

It's still the best pvp mmo to this day tied with DaoC, the pve is dead though there is only pvp now. Also they where pushed by EA to release before wrath of the lich king so it was a real mess as the game was not ready by miles.

Also the game is still active there is pvp in all tiers.

Shadowbane was the best PVP MMO, IMO.

[Beazy]

The number one reason why it failed is that it was developed using the gamebryo engine, just like Rift. Trion is bleeding subs and developers just like EA Mythic. because the game engine sucks. Its unresponsive and feels clunky to control your heroes.

PRO TIP! If you going to make a MMO, dont use MS POWER POINT to make it. When you use a pre built engine, you limit yourself, your game, your technology, and your creativity. Just look at swtor, it was made with the HerO engine, and look where it ended up, and HERO was FAR superior in every way to gamebryo.

[Edge-]

Any source for Rift bleeding subs/developers? They had a round of layoffs after the expansion, but that's commonplace for the gaming/MMO industry.

And no, it wasn't the Gamebryo engine in WAR. It was the fact that the game was nowhere near completion when it was released and had so many half realized/half baked systems in the game that they couldn't finish them fast enough post-launch. It was the game, not the engine.

Redit: Also, Cryengine 2-3 have run spectacularly for Aion (its problems were the game, not the engine), Unreal 3 runs insanely well for Tera (it's probably the best optimized game out in the market right now), Cryengine 3 seems to be running well in Archage in Korea, and there are a number of other MMO's running off licensed engines that are either doing just fine (DCUO is another) or have problems that stem from the game itself and not the engine.

[Beazy]

Any source for Rift bleeding subs/developers? They had a round of layoffs after the expansion, but that's commonplace for the gaming/MMO industry.

And no, it wasn't the Gamebryo engine in WAR. It was the fact that the game was nowhere near completion when it was released and had so many half realized/half baked systems in the game that they couldn't finish them fast enough post-launch. It was the game, not the engine.

Redit: Also, Cryengine 2-3 have run spectacularly for Aion (its problems were the game, not the engine), Unreal 3 runs insanely well for Tera (it's probably the best optimized game out in the market right now), Cryengine 3 seems to be running well in Archage in Korea, and there are a number of other MMO's running off licensed engines that are either doing just fine (DCUO is another) or have problems that stem from the game itself and not the engine.

Its common to lose 25% of your team after the release of an expansion? Thats news to me. Thats prime support and development time for any game, not just an MMO. When Rift started, there were over 75 servers, there are about 5 or 6 today. Not sure what your definition of "bleeding subs" is, but its pretty clear to anyone whos played it, that its bled out most of its subscribers.

Yes it was the gamebryo engine that killed WAR. People could not participate in real competitive PvP because of it. I was in open beta for 6 months before the game released and the number one complaint was "unresponsive control" and "Ability Delay". I know this because I was hammering the beta forums with hundreds of other people ~ daily about the issue. Gamebryo handles client to server horribly, and thats being nice. It was a fact well known when Mythic chose to use the engine as the foundation of WAR, even then people spoke out and asked they not use it, but since it was a cheap lisc and great for a budget game, they went in head first thinking they could make it work. Cutting corners with cost.

Cryengine does not run "spectacularly", not even sure why you would say that. CryEngine is not that great at all, and has some bad shader bugs that have not been fixed in 2 client releases.

Tera might use unreal3 (which Ill admit, is a pretty solid engine), but Trea is a sub par MMO, so its not attracting people.

[Vespian]

The number one reason why it failed is that it was developed using the gamebryo engine, just like Rift. Trion is bleeding subs and developers just like EA Mythic. because the game engine sucks. Its unresponsive and feels clunky to control your heroes.

PRO TIP! If you going to make a MMO, dont use MS POWER POINT to make it. When you use a pre built engine, you limit yourself, your game, your technology, and your creativity. Just look at swtor, it was made with the HerO engine, and look where it ended up, and HERO was FAR superior in every way to gamebryo.

While in agreement on the general direction of your statement, that using pre-built engines limits you to certain solid boundaries, I also have to mention that Rift was an excellent game, with excellent controls, a daring new format (the first with mobile and semi-random public quests and invasions) and actually great support. It had some glaring issues that mattered not until the developers decided to make 5 man content easier and that was exactly my reason to quit wow. We had a 3 man group doing 5 man T2 dungeons when it was still a challenge, then they nerfed it. Had they not done that, it's likely I would have played far longer than I did. And of course, once they did that, the shallow character creation, the stiff movement and the repetativeness of the quests/events started becoming more obvious, but in a sense, it was WoW 2.0. It still is. I just don't feel like there's a place for WoW 2.0 in the world.

Edit:
And as an early beta invitee, I had no issues with unresponsiveness in either game. Albeit more general lag in WAR.

[Edge-]

Its common to lose 25% of your team after the release of an expansion?

Sauce? We know of layoffs at Trion (including on the Rift team), but we don't know how much of the team was laid off.

When Rift started, there were over 75 servers, there are about 5 or 6 today.

I believe there are around 8 NA servers. While the population has dropped significantly since launch (as with every MMO), Trion made a mistake in opening too many servers at launch to begin with. They shouldn't have had that many open and it came to bite them in the ass later. The remaining servers have increased capacities, so can hold far more than what a single server used to be able to hold. We don't know how much more though so a direct comparison isn't possible.

Yes it was the gamebryo engine that killed WAR. People could not participate in real competitive PvP because of it. I was in open beta for 6 months before the game released and the number one complaint was "unresponsive control" and "Ability Delay".

Then why don't you have those same complaints in Rift, another game that uses the same engine? That was an issue with Mythics handling of the game/engine, not the engine itself.

Cryengine does not run "spectacularly", not even sure why you would say that. CryEngine is not that great at all, and has some bad shader bugs that have not been fixed in 2 client releases.

News to me. Everything I've seen and heard indicates that Aion, a game running on Cryengine 2 and now on Cryengine 3, has been running spectacularly since launch.

Tera might use unreal3 (which Ill admit, is a pretty solid engine), but Trea is a sub par MMO, so its not attracting people.

Welp, between EU/NA combined, they got over 2.4 million accounts (all new I believe) in the time since the game has transitioned to F2P (1 month), and seen an increase in subscribers as well. The game didn't have enough to justify a subscription (mainly an anemic endgame for Western players), however it's still a good game and absolutely worth playing and supporting.

[Feranor]

• EA forced Mythic to release the game prematurely (to get it out before WotLK) in an unfinished state with tons of bugs (some of which were basically copy + pasted from DAoC, like the infamous Spell Queue Exploit).
• Bad engine + net code made for floaty controls and button mashing (since abilities didn't go off without a huge delay).
• Adam "Gershlol" Gershowitz wanted to pwn people, so he buffed his Bright Wizard to insane levels (he did the same thing again in RIFT with his Pyromancer).
• No balance whatsoever. All you needed to do to win battlegrounds was to have a vacuum (Magus), lots of AoE (Sorceress) and that horrendous stacking cast time debuff (Marauders + a Chosen).
• It had instanced PvP at max level.
• Open PvP was either mindless zerg or raiding undefended keeps (taking keeps was much more profitable than defending them, so the players just took turns raiding each zone).

[Vespian]

Sauce? We know of layoffs at Trion (including on the Rift team), but we don't know how much of the team was laid off.



I believe there are around 8 NA servers. While the population has dropped significantly since launch (as with every MMO), Trion made a mistake in opening too many servers at launch to begin with. They shouldn't have had that many open and it came to bite them in the ass later. The remaining servers have increased capacities, so can hold far more than what a single server used to be able to hold. We don't know how much more though so a direct comparison isn't possible.




Then why don't you have those same complaints in Rift, another game that uses the same engine? That was an issue with Mythics handling of the game/engine, not the engine itself.



News to me. Everything I've seen and heard indicates that Aion, a game running on Cryengine 2 and now on Cryengine 3, has been running spectacularly since launch.



Welp, between EU/NA combined, they got over 2.4 million accounts (all new I believe) in the time since the game has transitioned to F2P (1 month), and seen an increase in subscribers as well. The game didn't have enough to justify a subscription (mainly an anemic endgame for Western players), however it's still a good game and absolutely worth playing and supporting.

AION? Aion went f2p after launch because it failed miserably. What happened after that, is unknown to me.

And TERA is only worth playing if you think anything else in the world, in existence, is worth playing. Ok, Al right. No it's not that bad, it's just a lot worse than all other AAA titles.

[Edge-]

AION? Aion went f2p after launch because it failed miserably. What happened after that, is unknown to me.

I'm not talking about its financial performance (which hasn't been strong in the West because it wasn't localized at all at launch and is still a decidedly Korean game) of Aion, but rather how the game runs. Hence my references to the engine it's running on.

[Beazy]

Then why don't you have those same complaints in Rift, another game that uses the same engine? That was an issue with Mythics handling of the game/engine, not the engine itself.

Because Rift was never marketed as the next Competitive PvP MMO like WAR. Its that simple. Most people who flocked to WAR were vet DAOC PvPerss. But the gambryo engine could not handle it. To put it simply, WAR could not do what it was advertised to do. Period. I highly doubt people purchased war to do PvE, sure some did, but that wasnt the draw, RvR was.

[Edge-]

Because Rift was never marketed as the next Competitive PvP MMO like WAR. Its that simple. Most people who flocked to WAR were vet DAOC PvPerss. But the gambryo engine could not handle it. To put it simply, WAR could not do what it was advertised to do. Period. I highly doubt people purchased war to do PvE, sure some did, but that wasnt the draw, RvR was.

Marketing has nothing to do with how the engine functions...

If it was an issue, as you say it was, with the engine, it would affect both PvP and PvE equally. High end PvE players (what Rift does have many of) would experience the same issues. Couple that with the fact that while PvP isn't a focal point of Rift, there is still a pretty sizable PvP community, and you would have a lot of complaints about those issues if they were inherent to the engine. Rift has both instanced BG PvP and larger scale group PvP (Conquest), so if it was there it would have popped up in one of those area's.

But they're not. They're inherent to a mediocre development house rushing out a game.

[araine]

It was one of the biggest branded wowkillers to ever have rolled around the corner into oblivion where it basically died while WoW still holds 10 million subs and is going stronger than ever.

Just sad how we like every year hear this game will kill wow and give it a few months and reality sets in and the smoke and mirrors cant cover the pile of dirt anymore and the "killer" program all goes into oblivion and they all are piles of crap noone should even think of paying even a penny for. Seems we have a big group of people that fall for these killer programs everytime they roll around since they are so deep in there hatred for WoW ( must been banned for 3hrs for cussing in trade ) that they fall for any damn pile of dogshit that gets in the pipelines and labels it WOW KILLER here it comes again.

Sure WoW will die but it wont happen before we get into the Titan project from Blizzard.

[Beazy]

Marketing has nothing to do with how the engine functions...

If it was an issue, as you say it was, with the engine, it would affect both PvP and PvE equally. High end PvE players (what Rift does have many of) would experience the same issues. Couple that with the fact that while PvP isn't a focal point of Rift, there is still a pretty sizable PvP community, and you would have a lot of complaints about those issues if they were inherent to the engine. Rift has both instanced BG PvP and larger scale group PvP (Conquest), so if it was there it would have popped up in one of those area's.

But they're not. They're inherent to a mediocre development house rushing out a game.

. . . . WAR was marketed as a Competitive PvP Game. The engine was not responsive enough in PvP encounters to be a competitive PvP game. Its a fact. Most of the PvPers who joined the WAR bandwagon, left for that exact reason. That is why WAR failed, its core crowd left because it was not up to par. It was the constant debate between the players and the developers from early beta to months after release. There is no denying it.

And to say that PvP in Rift is anything but mediocre, is being dishonest. Its sluggish and rigid controls make it nothing more than a "side show". And durring beta, it was a constant problem being discussed with Trion and the players. . . . but it was not as pronounced because Rift was not meant to be a competitive PvP game.

[Vespian]

I'm not talking about its financial performance (which hasn't been strong in the West because it wasn't localized at all at launch and is still a decidedly Korean game) of Aion, but rather how the game runs. Hence my references to the engine it's running on.

Fair enough, minsinterpr. on my side.

And to say that PvP in Rift is anything but mediocre, is being dishonest.

Gotta give him credit, pvp was a big failure for a long time. Not sure how it's now, but I recall that it had to be overhauled.

[Venziir]

EA happened.

Oh and they should probably have made a 40K MMO instead, since that's a way bigger niché. Not to mention that eh, Warhammer Fantasy's world is just a random feral world caught in a Warp Storm anyways.

[Slaughty8]

Even when i'm 80 years old, I HIGHLY doubt my love for video games will ever die. And I am 25 at the moment and the feeling of getting a brand new game that I have been waiting for still feels just as awsome as the time I bought Zelda for the N64 as a kid.

I am 25 too and I am my feeling of getting a bran new game is not the same as when I was a kid. It is like 10 times lower. I even decided to just watch all cinematics of SC2: HoT instead of playing the campaign.

And about the engine of WAR: it's not that bad, but there are better options out there. Currently the best engine out of all mmos poseses WoW, it's old and limited, but is doing well. Yes, it is not meant to be played for 200vs200 or more battles, but still, it works well.

[Edge-]

. . . . WAR was marketed as a Competitive PvP Game. The engine was not responsive enough in PvP encounters to be a competitive PvP game. Its a fact. Most of the PvPers who joined the WAR bandwagon, left for that exact reason. That is why WAR failed, its core crowd left because it was not up to par. It was the constant debate between the players and the developers from early beta to months after release. There is no denying it.

And to say that PvP in Rift is anything but mediocre, is being dishonest. Its sluggish and rigid controls make it nothing more than a "side show". And durring beta, it was a constant problem being discussed with Trion and the players. . . . but it was not as pronounced because Rift was not meant to be a competitive PvP game.

The issue doesn't exist in Rift. What do you not understand about that. Rift uses the same engine, so if it were a problem inherent to the engine, it would be noticed by serious players both in PvE and in PvP (yes, there are some people who take PvP seriously in Rift, not many though).

The core audience didn't leave because "there was ability delay", they left because the game was incomplete and didn't live up to half the promises they made. They left because it launched in a poor state and wasn't worth subscribing to.

I've never once claimed PvP in Rift is spectacular. I rarely PvP because it's so mediocre. That doesn't change the fact that the issue you're talking about doesn't_exist_in_Rift. That means it's not an inherent engine problem, it's a problem with what Mythic did with the engine when they got a hold of it.

[Beazy]

The issue doesn't exist in Rift. What do you not understand about that. Rift uses the same engine, so if it were a problem inherent to the engine, it would be noticed by serious players both in PvE and in PvP (yes, there are some people who take PvP seriously in Rift, not many though).

The core audience didn't leave because "there was ability delay", they left because the game was incomplete and didn't live up to half the promises they made. They left because it launched in a poor state and wasn't worth subscribing to.

I've never once claimed PvP in Rift is spectacular. I rarely PvP because it's so mediocre. That doesn't change the fact that the issue you're talking about doesn't_exist_in_Rift. That means it's not an inherent engine problem, it's a problem with what Mythic did with the engine when they got a hold of it.

For one thing, its not just ability delay. . . . not sure why your stuck on that. Client to server connectivity is also a a problem with Gambryo. But, in your defense ~ Rift does not have epic RvR keep siege battles anything remotely close to what you find in WAR or GW2. . . . so yeah, your right, you've probly never noticed bad engine performance because the developers at Trion knew what they could and couldnt do with gamebryo. That does not mean for one second that "it doesnt exist" in Rift, because it very much does.

[Edge-]

For one thing, its not just ability delay. . . . not sure why your stuck on that. Client to server connectivity is also a a problem with Gambryo. But, in your defense ~ Rift does not have epic RvR keep siege battles anything remotely close to what you find in WAR or GW2. . . . so yeah, your right, you've probly never noticed bad engine performance because the developers at Trion knew what they could and couldnt do with gamebryo.

Don't get me wrong, the game chugs along when there are a ton of people on the screen (Conquest, which is similar to RvR in many ways. And world bosses). But none of the large scale activities like that are really "competitive" in Rift.

Sorry for focusing on the ability delay. But even the "clunkly/unresponsive" issue you bring up never really occurs in Rift, even with tons of people around. Framerate will drop to shit, and there may be server lag as the server tries to process everything happening in a small area at once, but the controls don't ever inherently change. That kind of issue happens in almost every game on the market though. WoW will chug with a ton going on in a small area, so will GW2, SWTOR or any other game.