Kael'thas betrayal of the Kirin Tor? "The Fate of Dalaran" Quest

[TheDangerZone]

"Kael'thas Sunstrider was also a student here, another of our fold who betrayed us."

This is one of Jaina's lines during "The fate of Dalaran" cinematic. What betrayal does she mean?? His alliance with the naga, or his ultimate betrayal of the mortal races by allying with Illidan and Kil'jaeden? Because yes, the second one was pretty shitty of his part, but the first one just out of necessity.

Thoughts?

[Landin55]

Both probably. And overall she means the integrity of the reputation of the city. How long would us regular mortals take a city full of mages if every other hero turns to a villain.

[Splatter]

Given that the kirin'tor and dalaran were decimated by Archimonde in WC3 for trying to fight against the legion, I think it's fairly obvious she means Kael'thas siding with the legion.

[bohapjut]

allying with Illidan and Kil'jaeden

im thinkin this one

[Talen]

"Kael'thas Sunstrider was also a student here, another of our fold who betrayed us."

This is one of Jaina's lines during "The fate of Dalaran" cinematic. What betrayal does she mean?? His alliance with the naga, or his ultimate betrayal of the mortal races by allying with Illidan and Kil'jaeden? Because yes, the second one was pretty shitty of his part, but the first one just out of necessity.

Thoughts?

Likely both.

Whatever validity KTs reasons for joining with the Naga were, the truth si the Naga did take over the city under Illidan. That had to have rankled the Kirin Tor. Their friend, their companion - working with those who took over the city. His alliance with KJ needs no further explanation. The former would have been a more personal betrayal to some.

EJL

[Bathory]

Not even siding with Illidan, siding with Kil'jaeden, trying to summon him to Azeroth with the sunwell.

[Zharikov]

She's probably referring to both, even though the Illidan and Naga thing was because /Dalaran/ betrayed the elves. (When your allies that you're on the supposed ruling council for decides its a-okay for you to be locked up in their dungeons to be executed, you'll take your help where you can get it.) She has zero right to be upset at him for Illidan, but pretty much everyone can hate the guy for the Kil'jaeden thing, since in that act he betrayed his people/the world/even his former allies in Outland.

[bufferunderrun]

I think that jaina is referring to the fact that even the most powerfull mages, that are supposed to be more intelligent and have a vast knowledge than the averange Joe, can go nut and do bad thing (the other one showed in the video with gouls isn't kel'thuzard?)

[Zharikov]

Powerful mages that are supposed to be intelligent but go nuts and do bad things? Are we sure we aren't talking about Jaina here?

OH HO HO.

[bufferunderrun]

Powerful mages that are supposed to be intelligent but go nuts and do bad things? Are we sure we aren't talking about Jaina here?

OH HO HO.

I don't understand why soo many alliance players are against jaina developent, i think that the alliance need baddly someone less "lets hold everyone hands and dance in circle around a camp fire" and more meone will to act even brutal to eradicate a foe.

[Deleted]

"Kael'thas Sunstrider was also a student here, another of our fold who betrayed us."

This is one of Jaina's lines during "The fate of Dalaran" cinematic. What betrayal does she mean?? His alliance with the naga, or his ultimate betrayal of the mortal races by allying with Illidan and Kil'jaeden? Because yes, the second one was pretty shitty of his part, but the first one just out of necessity.

Thoughts?

It's just another demonstration of Kirin'Tor arrogance and detached ignorance. It's pretty bold to claim that someone who served diligently as leader of the magocratic city-state for longer than a human lifetime was a traitor to that city when he was locked in that same state's dungoens, condemned to be executed without trial, because he was actually able to complete a suicide mission that was supposed to bring about the death of him and his men.

Sure, he accepted the help of the Naga, but this is a group whose activities in the area prior to TFT we know nothing of, save for the opinions of an overtly racist and bigoted human supremacist. Are we to take that arsehole's opinion as logical and fair and assume that just because Kael accepted Vashj's help he automatically betrayed the Kirin'Tor and Alliance irrevocably? That doesn't sit right with me.

Before being sentenced to death in a city that was, at that time, more his home than Silvermoon, Kael had done nothing to betray Dalaran and put it in danger. If anything, his actions had made it safer and how do the Kirin'Tor respond? The way they usually always do by doing nothing. Where was Jaena's protest then when one of her superiors and sovereign leaders was to be murdered without trial? Nowhere, apparently. She's full of it, like most of the Dalaran magi.

I blame Blizzard's inability to put themselves into the shoes of their own characters and empathise with those who do anything that could be considered vaguely unheroic. It leads to writing frustratingly unsympathetic and pious dialogue such as the line in question.

[Kathranis]

I think Jaina's kind of just a huge hypocrit. She displayed some stunningly hypocritical behavior in Tides of War.

Like, for example, ranting about Garrosh using nature as a weapon and weilding powerful artifacts to wage war, while she was preparing to use the Focusing Iris to destroy Orgrimmar with a tidal wave made out of hundreds of enslaved water elementals.


As for Kael, you can argue that it was the Kirin Tor's behavior which drove him to the Legion in the first place. Rather than offering him safe haven behind their walls, they allowed Garithos to imprison him and his people in the Violet Hold and tried to execute them using, as I recall, a swarm of giant scorpions. Nevermind that Kael'thas was a royal and one of the Six.


In general, I think the Alliance actually displays a lot of hypocrisy, which I blame more on the writing than anything.

Genn Greymane and the worgen are another example. Genn was a colossal dick to the Alliance in the past, and the worgen are essentially savage monsters. Some humans in Hillsbrad went so far as to willingly drink worgen blood, becoming monsters in order to gain the power to fight the Forsaken.

And yet the worgen are welcomed with open arms by the night elves and Alliance, despite the worgen previously being known as such dangerous beings that they had to be trapped in the Emerald Dream for thousands of years, or being vicious monsters living in Silverpine, Duskwood, and Ashenvale. The ill will between Varian and Genn was also quickly set aside and they became friends fighting side-by-side in battle. Blizzard treats them as heroes among heroes -- there's nothing dark or savage left in them by the time the novels and questlines are over.

Meanwhile, the humans treated the Forsaken as monsters and the orcs are condemned for once drinking the blood of Mannoroth, and so forth. And, again, I don't really blame this on the Alliance so much as Blizzard's writers, which allowed for all these double-standards in the first place.

In a more logical world, the worgen storyline would have been written so that they would ally with the Forsaken rather than going to war. Two races of gothic monsters rejected by humanity, banding together for survival, makes a lot more sense than "and so the Forsaken attack them because they want a port (IE, because Blizz needed justification for the worgen joining the Alliance)".

[Maximus Testiculos]

I think Jaina's kind of just a huge hypocrit. She displayed some stunningly hypocritical behavior in Tides of War.

Like, for example, ranting about Garrosh using nature as a weapon and weilding powerful artifacts to wage war, while she was preparing to use the Focusing Iris to destroy Orgrimmar with a tidal wave made out of hundreds of enslaved water elementals.


As for Kael, you can argue that it was the Kirin Tor's behavior which drove him to the Legion in the first place. Rather than offering him safe haven behind their walls, they allowed Garithos to imprison him and his people in the Violet Hold and tried to execute them using, as I recall, a swarm of giant scorpions. Nevermind that Kael'thas was a royal and one of the Six.


In general, I think the Alliance actually displays a lot of hypocrisy, which I blame more on the writing than anything.

Genn Greymane and the worgen are another example. Genn was a colossal dick to the Alliance in the past, and the worgen are essentially savage monsters. Some humans in Hillsbrad went so far as to willingly drink worgen blood, becoming monsters in order to gain the power to fight the Forsaken.

And yet the worgen are welcomed with open arms by the night elves and Alliance, despite the worgen previously being known as such dangerous beings that they had to be trapped in the Emerald Dream for thousands of years, or being vicious monsters living in Silverpine, Duskwood, and Ashenvale. The ill will between Varian and Genn was also quickly set aside and they became friends fighting side-by-side in battle. Blizzard treats them as heroes among heroes -- there's nothing dark or savage left in them by the time the novels and questlines are over.

Meanwhile, the humans treated the Forsaken as monsters and the orcs are condemned for once drinking the blood of Mannoroth, and so forth. And, again, I don't really blame this on the Alliance so much as Blizzard's writers, which allowed for all these double-standards in the first place.

In a more logical world, the worgen storyline would have been written so that they would ally with the Forsaken rather than going to war. Two races of gothic monsters rejected by humanity, banding together for survival, makes a lot more sense than "and so the Forsaken attack them because they want a port (IE, because Blizz needed justification for the worgen joining the Alliance)".

There is no justification for forsaken. First thing they did after getting free will was trying to kill all humans in lordaeron.

Humans can't easily forget orcs attacks. And orcs continue aggression even without demon blood.

So neither forsaken nor orcs can claim to be treated badly because of alliance hypocrisy.

Also the naga has captured dalaran only a few mission earlier. Kaelthas himself fougth against them. When dalaran see them working with naga they are rightful to be angry and dissappointed.

[Talen]

She's probably referring to both, even though the Illidan and Naga thing was because /Dalaran/ betrayed the elves. (When your allies that you're on the supposed ruling council for decides its a-okay for you to be locked up in their dungeons to be executed, you'll take your help where you can get it.) She has zero right to be upset at him for Illidan, but pretty much everyone can hate the guy for the Kil'jaeden thing, since in that act he betrayed his people/the world/even his former allies in Outland.

He was arrested because he allied with the naga. Your timeline is back to front....

It's just another demonstration of Kirin'Tor arrogance and detached ignorance. It's pretty bold to claim that someone who served diligently as leader of the magocratic city-state for longer than a human lifetime was a traitor to that city when he was locked in that same state's dungoens, condemned to be executed without trial, because he was actually able to complete a suicide mission that was supposed to bring about the death of him and his men.

By the same token, the Kirin Tor were in no position to argue with garithos. Nor do we actually know for sure what they were doing, nor what their position was on Garithos' actions. It would be easy to say and believe that the Kirin Tor sat back and did nothing. Is that what they did?

Sure, he accepted the help of the Naga, but this is a group whose activities in the area prior to TFT we know nothing of, save for the opinions of an overtly racist and bigoted human supremacist.

They took over Dalaran for a while to help Illidan.

Where was Jaena's protest then when one of her superiors and sovereign leaders was to be murdered without trial? Nowhere, apparently. She's full of it, like most of the Dalaran magi.

She herself was in Theramore after fighting off the Burning Legion in Hyjal.

EJL

[logintime]

I'm waiting for Blizzard to admit their mistake and retcon Kael'thas back into the person he was prior to TBC, when they turned him into a generic villain so players could farm him. I mean seriously, his siding with the Legion made the flimsiest of sense. It was a near-total contradiction of who he was.

[Deleted]

By the same token, the Kirin Tor were in no position to argue with garithos. Nor do we actually know for sure what they were doing, nor what their position was on Garithos' actions. It would be easy to say and believe that the Kirin Tor sat back and did nothing. Is that what they did?


They took over Dalaran for a while to help Illidan.


She herself was in Theramore after fighting off the Burning Legion in Hyjal.

EJL

The Kirin'Tor are a sovereign body and Dalaran is a sovereign state. Judging the mess in the aftermath of the Third War, I doubt they were under any obligation to obey Garithos or recognise his claim to be acting as Commander-In-Chief (in a martial law capacity) of Alliance forces. Surely, securing the safety of one of their leaders, a long-serving member of the Six, would be a higher priority to them than abiding the decision making of a jumped-up, bigoted nobody.

Meh. They may have occupied the ruins of Dalaran, but that was at a time when, as you pointed out in Jaina's case, the Kirin'Tor had left it to the dogs. She was at least doing them the favour of dealing with some of the Scourge.

As for Jaina in Theramore, I'm not sure whether the scenes in Dalaran and depictions of Jaina in Kalimdor are supposed to be occurring at the same time, but, even if they were, that merely shows her decision to cash in her chips, starting anew in Theramore, and cut her losses with not only Dalaran but all of Lordaeron as well, leaving the continent to the Scourge. I don't think she was in any position to judge Kirin'Tor members actually fighting in Dalaran as traitors in hindsight. I stick by my accusation of undeserved and detached piety from before.

[Spellweaver]

As for Kael, you can argue that it was the Kirin Tor's behavior which drove him to the Legion in the first place. Rather than offering him safe haven behind their walls, they allowed Garithos to imprison him and his people in the Violet Hold and tried to execute them using, as I recall, a swarm of giant scorpions. Nevermind that Kael'thas was a royal and one of the Six.

The Kirin Tor had absolutely nothing to do with this. Dalaran was destroyed, and was taken over by the Scourge. Garithos was merely the leader of the remnant of the Alliance army in Lordaeron. Garithos probably didn't give a shit about the Council of Six, considering he didn't like any race besides humans. And it's not like the Council could do anything about it, part of it probably died in the initial attack by Archimonde, and the remaining part probably didn't really know what to do after such a devastating attack.

In general, I think the Alliance actually displays a lot of hypocrisy, which I blame more on the writing than anything.

Genn Greymane and the worgen are another example. Genn was a colossal dick to the Alliance in the past, and the worgen are essentially savage monsters. Some humans in Hillsbrad went so far as to willingly drink worgen blood, becoming monsters in order to gain the power to fight the Forsaken.

And yet the worgen are welcomed with open arms by the night elves and Alliance, despite the worgen previously being known as such dangerous beings that they had to be trapped in the Emerald Dream for thousands of years, or being vicious monsters living in Silverpine, Duskwood, and Ashenvale. The ill will between Varian and Genn was also quickly set aside and they became friends fighting side-by-side in battle. Blizzard treats them as heroes among heroes -- there's nothing dark or savage left in them by the time the novels and questlines are over.

The difference is that the worgen in Silverpine, Duskwood and Ashenvale were worgen that lost the balance between beast and human, because they didn't go through a certain night elf ritual. They worgen of Gilneas did go through that ritual (as seen in http://www.wowhead.com/quest=24593 ) and proved that they could control their rage.
And why is it hypocrisy that Varian and Genn set aside their differences? Are people not allowed to change?

Meanwhile, the humans treated the Forsaken as monsters and the orcs are condemned for once drinking the blood of Mannoroth, and so forth. And, again, I don't really blame this on the Alliance so much as Blizzard's writers, which allowed for all these double-standards in the first place.

Yes, because the Forsaken (when they were Scourge) didn't completely decimate Lordaeron. (I know, not the Forsaken's fault, but it still something that'd make humans dislike the Forsaken)
And let's not forget what the Forsaken kept doing after they were freed from the Scourge, they kept researching and perfecting their own plague to kill both the undead AND the living, which was also used to bomb both the Alliance AND the Horde at the Wrathgate. It'd only be hypocrisy if the Worgen continued to be vicious monsters after joining the Alliance.

In a more logical world, the worgen storyline would have been written so that they would ally with the Forsaken rather than going to war. Two races of gothic monsters rejected by humanity, banding together for survival, makes a lot more sense than "and so the Forsaken attack them because they want a port (IE, because Blizz needed justification for the worgen joining the Alliance)".

Perhaps you forgot that it was the Scourge that also relentlessly attacked the Greymane Wall during the aftermath of the Third War? That is was the Scourge that decimated Genn's army? Sure, this is the Scourge again, not the Forsaken, but how much of a difference would that make if they saw the Forsaken marching up to their doorstep?

[Jawless Jones]

it'll be the burning legion thing

the naga thing was only an issue because garithos was looking for any reason to kill off kael and his army (kind of stupid, if someone wants to help you fight off an undead apocalypse you dont try and kill them), i highly doubt the Kirin Tor even cared considering the naga were helping kael'thas, a person they had know and trusted for years and was a member of the six

[Talen]

The Kirin'Tor are a sovereign body and Dalaran is a sovereign state.

Which had been invaded by the Scourge, seen its ruler and much of its defence force killed off, was thrashed by Archimonde and taken over by Naga before Garithos secured it.

You are asking for and expecting a lot from a shattered body likely unable to throw up much resistance of any sort to the leader of the army who has secured your city and garrisoned his troops there.

Surely, securing the safety of one of their leaders, a long-serving member of the Six, would be a higher priority to them than abiding the decision making of a jumped-up, bigoted nobody.

You are speculating that they were able to do so, that there was even someone there with the rank and position to argue with Garithos. And ignoring how THEY might feel about learning that this member of the Six allied with one of the forces who recently took over Dalaran. How many members of the Six, for example, died when Dalaran fell? How much of Dalaran went with Jaina? How much of their army joined with the mercs who were ported in and died?

Kael'Thas sided with the same Naga who had recently controlled the city. He did so in violation of the orders of the man who controlled much of the human forecs in the area. If HE didn't have the rank to overrule Garithos, then who in Dalaran did?

EJL

[Zeras]

I'm waiting for Blizzard to admit their mistake and retcon Kael'thas back into the person he was prior to TBC, when they turned him into a generic villain so players could farm him. I mean seriously, his siding with the Legion made the flimsiest of sense. It was a near-total contradiction of who he was.

Wasted development as they said, but nah nvm lore, need a loot pinata for all the raidderps. Nevermind how helpful and respectful he was to Tyrande and co, nope lets paint him as the pounce elf prince yadda yadda can't stand those pritti elves can we blizzard, why develop then? lets also force him into betraying not just the alliance but his own people, for no raisin. forget that he lead his people even in the most stupidly outnumbered situations, forget also that he was so angered by the loss of quel'thalas that he even renamed his people to blood elves and wanted nothing more then to avenge his fallen kin.

I'd like a retcon, but it never feels right, perhaps just remember the good things we saw in TFT.