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  1. #1

    [Fire] Why Haste > Mastery??

    Im trying to figure out why Haste is better than mastery on fire spec...
    Take a look...
    we fish for crits to get a good Ignite (MASTERY STAT) to get a good combustion...
    So, the more mastery we have, more harder ignite will hit and combustion will hit harder as well. I know haste improve thicks and stuff but mastery we use whole the time because we cast our fire spells and it applies the ignite.
    So, why we put mastery in last stat???
    Haste is good, but I think that would be a last priority to a good cap with a good gear, aint??

  2. #2
    The more fireballs you can cast in a given period of time, the more chance for critical strike which intern returns more !pyroblasts. Simple as that.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Daniwa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
    The more fireballs you can cast in a given period of time, the more chance for critical strike which intern returns more !pyroblasts. Simple as that.
    its much more than that. It's more ticks on NT /combust and such things. Dont try to dumb peoples questions down just because you want to make a reply on the forum mate.

    I'm also interested in knowing why, as I never see any hardcore, carved in stone, facts/opinions about the haste vs mastery.

    If any of you guys in here who knows your shit could post a good explanation, I would love to read it!
    Why have a signature? What I just posted states how retarded I am anyways.

  4. #4
    More fireballs, more crits, more Ignite ticks, more Pyroblast ticks, more *Bomb* ticks, more Combustion ticks

    Mastery and Haste both effect all of your spells, and the damage you gain per point of haste through more casts + ticks is more than the damage you gain per point of mastery through more damage

  5. #5
    because math says so. stat weights aren't arbitrary, they're just math and every piece of gear you get changes them slightly

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    More fireballs, more crits, more Ignite ticks, more Pyroblast ticks, more *Bomb* ticks, more Combustion ticks

    Mastery and Haste both effect all of your spells, and the damage you gain per point of haste through more casts + ticks is more than the damage you gain per point of mastery through more damage

    All of it against more damage from your fireball, pyroblast, infernoblast, frostfire and scorch.
    Both are a good stat. If I dont have a good damage with these spells, I dont have a good ignite, and a lot of thicks of a low damage isnt good!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bemlikanz View Post
    All of it against more damage from your fireball, pyroblast, infernoblast, frostfire and scorch.
    Both are a good stat. If I dont have a good damage with these spells, I dont have a good ignite, and a lot of thicks of a low damage isnt good!
    Mastery does not increase the direct damage of your spells, only the ignite that follows.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-03 at 02:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniwa View Post
    its much more than that. It's more ticks on NT /combust and such things. Dont try to dumb peoples questions down just because you want to make a reply on the forum mate.

    I'm also interested in knowing why, as I never see any hardcore, carved in stone, facts/opinions about the haste vs mastery.

    If any of you guys in here who knows your shit could post a good explanation, I would love to read it!
    This is not EJ, if you wanted a EJ answer go there and ask. Mastery only increases your ignite damage and inversely your combustion damage. Mastery outside of this application is a useless stat for everything else you are doing. Haste is only good when your at the breakpoints to get the extra ticks on your dots, haste does not affect ignite as it is a fixed duration and ticks. So if you stick to Intellect > Hit @15% > Crit. What you do from here is pretty much like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic as it sinks.
    Last edited by Skidd; 2013-04-03 at 02:55 AM.

  8. #8
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    there is all this talk of how increased haste levels leads to more NT/Combustion ticks, but honestly look at the haste break points. starting at a 3056 haste value, which is easily attainable and is the consensus starting break point. you would need ~3.4k haste rating for an additional tick of nether tempest, ~2k for addition ticks of a glyphed combustion, and ~6.7k for additional pyroblast ticks. if those requirements are not met, you are essential left with a slightly reduced fireball cast time, and ever so slightly reduced global cooldowns.

    now for an attempt at the hardcore, carved in stone, facts about haste vs. mastery... i'll pick an arbitrary value of 1700 haste/mastery rating for the example, only chosen because it is not enough to gain addition ticks of any of our dot spells, but still significant enough to see some changes in cast time. if you can reach another haste break point and gain additional ticks of your dots, it is also the well accepted consensus to do so, but let's assume that we cannot, and have 1700 haste/mastery rating available to reforge either way.

    1700 haste rating = 4.2% haste. [(1700/425) * 1.05] = 4.2
    1700 mastery rating = 4.25% mastery. (1700/400) = 4.25

    even from here we can see already that the values are pretty close, although the haste rating will gain additional value during a lust/troll berserking.
    from here we can compare just how much of a reduction in cast time we gain from casting a fireball with an additional 4.2% haste.

    fireball cast time at 12.55% haste = 2.25/1.1255 = 1.999 sec
    fireball cast time at 16.75% haste = 2.25/1.1675 = 1.927 sec

    a difference of .072 sec or 3.6% faster. 1.927/1.999 = .964

    gcd at 12.55% haste = 1.333 sec
    gcd at 16.75% haste = 1.285 sec

    a difference of .048 sec or 3.6% faster.

    now let's take a look at how much damage is gained from 4.25% mastery.
    our base mastery value, 0 mastery rating, is 19.5% mastery. 12% from the fire spec, plus 7.5% from raid buff. seeing as the chances of having 0 mastery rating is pretty slim, and for the sake of simplicity, lets say our lowest possible mastery after reforges is 1000 rating.

    ignite contribution at 22.00% mastery = 200,000 * 1.22 = 244,000
    ignite contribution at 26.25% mastery = 200,000 * 1.2625 = 252,500

    a difference of 8,500 or 3.5% more damage. (252,500/244,000)= 1.035

    once gain, here the values are pretty close. but there are several other factors, which i don't care to model, because it has become evident to me that they are going to remain very close between haste break points. factors for haste such as more chances to proc trinkets with a higher haste, or despite the difference in cast time, you cannot have fractions of a fireball, therefore if you haven't accumulated enough time with the cast time reduction to actually cast another fireball or other spell, you have to question how truly valuable the difference is. and there factors for mastery as well, as your lowest possible mastery grows, the gain from the additional mastery is slightly devalued, or that not only will it increase your ignite damage, but also the combustion damage from said ignites.

    overall, after you have reached the spell hit cap, and maxed out your INT and CRIT values, and passed the nearest possible haste break points for your damage over time spells, what to do with the remaining haste/mastery becomes even more irrelevant. in my own personal opinion, i favor mastery after haste break points because i believe the top ranking parses are results of large combustions, not a few additional fireballs. also, my mage is a troll, so i already gain several additional ticks of combustion (28 total ticks in my current gear to be specific) when i use my alter time in conjunction with the racial, and i do enjoy them being stronger, especially as the chain leading up to my combustions extends to 6-8 consecutive pyroblasts and the gain is more noticeable.
    Last edited by elpadrino293; 2013-04-03 at 11:17 AM.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    On top of the more ticks and more spells you also get more RPPM procs. Mastery doesn't provide that same level of effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
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  10. #10
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    On top of the more ticks and more spells you also get more RPPM procs. Mastery doesn't provide that same level of effect.
    you get more chances at procs, not necessarily more procs. and you don't get that many more ticks unless you have a significant increase in haste.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    you get more chances at procs, not necessarily more procs. and you don't get that many more ticks unless you have a significant increase in haste.
    True, but you see what I was getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  12. #12
    It's also important to remember that haste still benefits dots between break points. I've been seeing a lot of talk that acts like it does no benefit to dots until you get that extra tick. It reminds me of when haste was first introduced, and people were convinced that you only saw a benefit from haste when your cast times got short enough that you introduced an extra cast in the fight. This wasn't true then and it isn't true now that you only benefit from haste when you get an extra tick in your dot (though that provides significant extra benefit, to be sure).

    Imagine what would happen if haste just decreased the time between dot ticks and didn't ever add extra ticks. As you added haste you would hit the same buttons, cast the same spells at the same intervals, just faster. It would be like being on fast forward. You would cast NT every X fireballs regardless of haste, but that would happen in fewer seconds. Which do you prefer? Obviously you prefer the one that happens in less time.

    Or, to put it another way, reverse it and think about what would happen if you got a debuff that doubled the time between dot ticks but didn't actually reduce the number of ticks going out. The total damage done by your dot cast would be the same. Technically the damage per execute time would be the same. But it would be horrible, right? It would do half the dps while up and the fact that you could cast an extra part of a fireball in there due to not having to refresh it would only be partial compensation. After all, if it is better damage to cast a GCD worth of a fireball than NT, then you would't cast NT (I'm ignoring pyromaniac here, but you get the point). Getting to cast it more frequently for the same damage (over a shorter time) would be a good thing.

    What we get is an added bonus that actually increases the damage and prevents the dot from getting much shorter by adding ticks. This means we get all the benefits above plus extra fireball casts due to not having to refresh more frequently.

    The bottom line is that while we always think about the damage part, we really care about damage per second. Most bosses take a rather fixed amount of total damage to kill. What we really care about is how fast we can deliver that damage. Haste tends to be so powerful because it directly manipulates the time part of that equation. And now that it affects dots (strongly) and cast time spells and the GCD and real ppm, it pretty much does it across the board. So even though mastery is a bit sexier because it hits the damage side of the equation, increasing the numbers we see scroll by, it only affects some of those things, not all. So unless the multiplier on how much mastery affects those things is tuned strongly enough, haste will have an edge. It just so happens that the multiplier on mastery isn't tuned quite strongly enough to do that.

  13. #13
    On a related note to bomb DPS vs. DPCT:

    NT and Frost Bomb DPS both scale linearly with haste. However the DPCT of NT scales quadratically with haste, while DPCT of Frost Bomb still scales linearly.

    DPS is what matters the most, but DPCT is a small factor, hence why NT scales slightly better overall with haste than FB.

  14. #14
    FB's cast time becomes sub-GCD very easily if stacking haste, which is a big part of why nobody uses it.

  15. #15
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bemlikanz View Post
    Im trying to figure out why Haste is better than mastery on fire spec...
    Take a look...
    we fish for crits to get a good Ignite (MASTERY STAT) to get a good combustion...
    So, the more mastery we have, more harder ignite will hit and combustion will hit harder as well. I know haste improve thicks and stuff but mastery we use whole the time because we cast our fire spells and it applies the ignite.
    So, why we put mastery in last stat???
    Haste is good, but I think that would be a last priority to a good cap with a good gear, aint??
    More haste = more spells you can cram into an ignite.

    Try spamming Hot Streaked Pyros w/o haste during an Alter Time. See if you can stack an ignite.

    On top of that, Haste scales up Pyroblast's DoT, Mage Bomb, Combustion, your general cast speed, and all Globals that aren't already capped. Mastery only scales up Ignite (with the rating ==> 1% ratio, it's so small that it's not really worth it) and Combustion (purely because of Ignite). It doesn't affect your Mage Bomb, Pyroblast DoT, or anything else in your rotation.

    Bottom line: Mastery is okay but it scales so poorly compared to Haste and Crit that it'd be stupid to invest into it unless you're a level 80 twink (Where you pretty much have 100% Crit)

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 02:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    On a related note to bomb DPS vs. DPCT:

    NT and Frost Bomb DPS both scale linearly with haste. However the DPCT of NT scales quadratically with haste, while DPCT of Frost Bomb still scales linearly.

    DPS is what matters the most, but DPCT is a small factor, hence why NT scales slightly better overall with haste than FB.
    That's the first time I've ever heard that term. Mind telling me what it is?

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bemlikanz View Post
    All of it against more damage from your fireball, pyroblast, infernoblast, frostfire and scorch.
    Both are a good stat. If I dont have a good damage with these spells, I dont have a good ignite, and a lot of thicks of a low damage isnt good!
    Mastery pretty much only affects Ignite and Combustion damage. Haste reduces the casting time of Fireball, not only increasing its overall damage over a period of time, but also increases the frequency of Hot Streak/Pyroblast! procs, reduces your global cooldown, and adds extra ticks to Ignite, Pyroblast and Combustion, all of which make a fairly significant portion of your overall damage, and also adds ticks to Nether Tempest/Living Bomb and reduces the cooldown of Frost Bomb.

    Needless to say, you'd need a lot more mastery rating than haste to equal the same overall damage output.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 06:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    That's the first time I've ever heard that term. Mind telling me what it is?
    Damage per cast time.

    DPCT is usually where DoTs shine.

    Imagine we have an instant cast DoT (1.5 second cast for math purposes, a non-hasted typical GCD) that deals 50,000 damage over 12 seconds. And we also have a 2.5 second cast nuke that deals 35,000 damage.

    It's obvious by the numbers alone that the DoT deals more overall damage than the nuke, but it's very slow damage. It's essentially 4,166.66 DPS (50,000 damage / 12 duration). The nuke on the other hand does 14,000 DPS (35,000 damage / 2.5 second cast time). Clearly, the nuke deals higher DPS.

    Since the nuke deals all of its damage at once, its DPS and DPCT are the same. Since we know the DoT WILL eventually deal all of its damage, lets divide IT by its cast time (the 1.5s GCD). The result is 33,333.33 DPCT.

    The nuke deals more than 3 times as much DPS than the DoT, but the DoT deals twice as much DPCT than the nuke.

    It's really just a bunch of pointless semantics, anyway. Anything with a higher DPCT will give you higher overall DPS in the long run, save for any mechanic that forces you to use lower DPCT spells to fish for procs and whatnot. I don't feel like logging into my mage to check actual numbers, but, if, for example, Inferno Blast had higher DPCT than Fireball, then, by themselves, you'd want to cast Inferno Blast on cooldown. However, due to the Hot Streak mechanic, you'd still want to reserve Inferno Blast to transform your Hot Streak procs into Pyroblast! procs, as Pyroblast! would be much more valuable than the slightly higher DPCT of Inferno Blast over Fireball.
    Last edited by Veyne; 2013-04-05 at 06:55 AM.
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  17. #17
    If haste outweights mastery, Is it going to be fine to get items with no mastery at all?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagnerk View Post
    If haste outweights mastery, Is it going to be fine to get items with no mastery at all?
    In a perfect world, you'd want all of your gear, past hitcap, to only have Crit and Haste. But, thanks to Reforging, it's less of an issue. But you'd pretty much always want to reforge Mastery into something else. Hit if you're not hitcapped, Crit if you are hitcapped and the piece of gear doesn't have Crit on it, or Haste if you're hitcapped and the piece of gear DOES have crit on it.
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  19. #19
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dralektus View Post
    It's also important to remember that haste still benefits dots between break points. I've been seeing a lot of talk that acts like it does no benefit to dots until you get that extra tick.

    What we get is an added bonus that actually increases the damage and prevents the dot from getting much shorter by adding ticks. This means we get all the benefits above plus extra fireball casts due to not having to refresh more frequently.
    the benefit is hundredths of a second for a full percent of haste. and for NT it is even worse, thousandths of a second for a percent of haste.

    as the frequency of the dot decreases, shorter time between ticks, the duration is shortened as well... until you begin to gain extra ticks. so you will be refreshing more frequently.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    in my own personal opinion, i favor mastery after haste break points because i believe the top ranking parses are results of large combustions, not a few additional fireballs.
    Don't you have a few warning bells going off when you base your opinion on top ranking, and come to a conclusion opposite of what nearly every mage in that ranking does (prioritize haste over mastery)?

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