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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    It's not anymore.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:36 AM ----------


    It's not supposed to be on par with other classes because its a way to balance spec between them.

    If you give the same uptime to the best spec ou there and the worst, whats the point other than just a dps boost ?

    That is what I'm getting at. I'm not asking for the same uptime for each class. I feel like other classes pass fire mages (as in we go from top 3-4 dps spec down to like top 10) since ours sucks so much and theirs are better. I have a couple of logs (cant post links cause not enough posts..) of me and a couple of my friends messing around in some LFRS, and a boomkin in particular that I outgear and should beat on most fights was consistently ahead of me by quite a margin.

    He had a total of 152 procs through all of the lfr kills and I had 25. So what I was trying to say was they nerfed our proc-rate WAYYYY too much. It needs to be lower than 25-30% but 6-7% is just retarded.
    Last edited by Hauntedd; 2013-04-21 at 10:29 AM.

  2. #142
    Well , now moonkins are just going to destroy us , nothing we can do about it.

  3. #143
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Moonkins needed the single target buff from the gem. Well at least at normal ilvls not in heroic gear.

    It has caused their multi target to get pretty ridiculous.
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  4. #144
    Stood in the Fire
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    Maybe, but isn't a 50% uptime a bit too much? For the legendary feeling of cause, but it's unfair to give it only some specs that (maybe) need a buff. Then they should buff the spec and not push the legendary gem. I'm just waiting for a blue post, now. It's about the gem and not the spec.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    Let's punish all the fire mages without the gem.
    You could do that in a few weeks when everyone has the gem.

    Anyway, fire is only viable at high gear, even at my ilvl (512) it still sucks compared to frost. So almost any viable fire mage had alreadly or will have the meta gem very soon.

    If you're playing a very sub par spec at a low ilvl, getting shitty dps or shitty dps-5% isnt gonna make a difference on your LFR runs.
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  6. #146
    Are you sure that balance druid wasn't just better than you Hauntedd?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by dark666105 View Post
    Are you sure that balance druid wasn't just better than you Hauntedd?
    wouldn't surprise me

  8. #148
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Thats why I proposed to nerf fire then crank the uptime but apparently that would be stupid :P.
    Why do we need a nerf when Warlocks are already beating us on almost every fight, AND have better uptimes?

    Fire should be at 1.0. Everyone else below 1.0 should be brought to 1.0. If necessary, buff other speccs higher. Don't nerf our fun to "balance" DPS (even though all this does is nerf Fire drastically from last week)

    I shouldn't have to go Frost to have a fun legendary procc. Not even Dragonwrath was balanced around this.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:38 AM ----------

    PS: Here's my biggest problem with this legendary: If it was only going to affect ToT, fine. Whatever. It'll be gone in a couple months. BUT NOPE. We're all meant to use this ALL THROUGH TIER 16 AS WELL. Fire is meant to SUFFER THROUGH THE END OF THE EXPANSION with this (now garbage) meta that provides us a ~3% dps boost, and others a... what? 6-15%? (It's not even really about the DPS at the end of the day. It's that this was meant to be a fun meta in addition to our other stuff, but now, when it proccs for Fire, it's like "oh look. Mini heroism for my next few Fireballs... yay...")

    I'm just saying it's horribly balanced, horribly designed, and should at least give Fire the base rate like a normal trinket. If you want to make Moonkins and Elemental Shamans have a passive 30% haste from it, go ahead. Their RPPM on it is already WELL above 2.1 (before Haste even; 1.8 * 1.18 = 2.124), and ours isn't even 0.4, even WITH our haste because Fire typically has low haste levels. Hell, I just swapped to Frost and I'm at 40% haste and the coefficient is 1.3. That's insane. Not to mention, the trinket greatly boosts Frost more than it does Fire. More Haste means more NT proccs, which means more Brain Freezes (Or more Frost Bombs if you use FB, in like, dungeons or something). Faster Frostbolts means quicker Fingers of Frost. While Fire may sorta have this luxury, they're purely based on crit and not a flat percentage (plus reaction timing, and with too much haste causing Fireball to come too quickly, well... you'll probably miss an IB or two).
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-21 at 12:39 PM.

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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Why do we need a nerf when Warlocks are already beating us on almost every fight, AND have better uptimes?

    Fire should be at 1.0. Everyone else below 1.0 should be brought to 1.0. If necessary, buff other speccs higher. Don't nerf our fun to "balance" DPS (even though all this does is nerf Fire drastically from last week)

    I shouldn't have to go Frost to have a fun legendary procc. Not even Dragonwrath was balanced around this.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:38 AM ----------

    PS: Here's my biggest problem with this legendary: If it was only going to affect ToT, fine. Whatever. It'll be gone in a couple months. BUT NOPE. We're all meant to use this ALL THROUGH TIER 16 AS WELL. Fire is meant to SUFFER THROUGH THE END OF THE EXPANSION with this (now garbage) meta that provides us a ~3% dps boost, and others a... what? 6-15%? (It's not even really about the DPS at the end of the day. It's that this was meant to be a fun meta in addition to our other stuff, but now, when it proccs for Fire, it's like "oh look. Mini heroism for my next few Fireballs... yay...")

    I'm just saying it's horribly balanced, horribly designed, and should at least give Fire the base rate like a normal trinket. If you want to make Moonkins and Elemental Shamans have a passive 30% haste from it, go ahead. Their RPPM on it is already WELL above 2.1 (before Haste even; 1.8 * 1.18 = 2.124), and ours isn't even 0.4, even WITH our haste because Fire typically has low haste levels. Hell, I just swapped to Frost and I'm at 40% haste and the coefficient is 1.3. That's insane. Not to mention, the trinket greatly boosts Frost more than it does Fire. More Haste means more NT proccs, which means more Brain Freezes (Or more Frost Bombs if you use FB, in like, dungeons or something). Faster Frostbolts means quicker Fingers of Frost. While Fire may sorta have this luxury, they're purely based on crit and not a flat percentage (plus reaction timing, and with too much haste causing Fireball to come too quickly, well... you'll probably miss an IB or two).

    Mage shouldn't have to go fire to do heroics. Yet most of them do.
    And I really don't care about locks. I'm tired of this mage vs lock war. I'm interested in my char, not the others...

    And if you, and many others said, its not about dps but about the utility and fun of the meta, then my proposition, while clearly not perfect, shouldnt bother you.
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  10. #150
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    And if you, and many others said, its not about dps but about the utility and fun of the meta, then my proposition, while clearly not perfect, shouldnt bother you.
    While true, at the same time, WHY should we have to be nerfed is my question.

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  11. #151
    Can't have your cake and eat it to.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    While true, at the same time, WHY should we have to be nerfed is my question.
    Because there's a very good chance fire was balanced around a certain coefficient, so if it was higher than supposed to, you were beyond what blizzard expected for us.
    And if you do, its expands the difference between fire and the other spec even more.

    I don't want to play fire just for the sake of dpsing a ton more than frost.
    Last edited by Eihwaz; 2013-04-21 at 03:16 PM.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  13. #153
    Without getting too far into the sky is falling mentality I am going to focus the main reason why this meta is so underwhelming at this point. I believe it is better than the burning gem, albeit marginally at best, but for all the effort to have access to the legendary it feels like we got screwed.

    Its not fun/good design. Fire is already based on RNG which can make the spec feel less about skill and more about luck. I have 41.5% raid buffed crit chance on my character sheet. Even with above 50% crit levels I can go 10+ seconds with no crits from fireball/scorch. This is frustrating because not matter what I do it is impossible for me to affect the roll for a spell hit/crit. My skill becomes less a factor than stringing together 4-6 crits in a row for that perfect 75k+ combust. On the other hand fire has more nuances than most people realize and the difference between a good fire mage and a great fire mage can be sizable; spreading dots/timing CDs/trinket procs all factor in to how much damage we can push out. The main point is fire depends on RNG for optimal damage more than virtually any other spec.

    Now the meta gem only exacerbates this problem. The simple fact that it can proc mid evocate and instantly lose 1.5-2 seconds realized up-time makes it even more painful. When the buff is up 40-50% of the time it wont matter if a elemental shaman or moonkin misses out of a few seconds because each second is worth less to them than to a mage. If we are running ice out on Magera and lose out on all the buff just one time then the gem is worse than the regular meta. I repsect that it is another tool to balance DPS but for some classes to have the buff 50% of the time when others are at 10% just feels broken from a design standpoint and not fun from a mage point of view.

    The gem makes me feel like I am relying MORE on favorable RNG than ever.

  14. #154
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Maybe the issue isn't boomkins or warlocks or anything like that..

    Maybe its just a skill.. (how do i put this...) barrier?

    PVE dps wise.. ALL dps classes (except MM hunts..) are close to eachother.. better then it has been in the past...

    People are just getting their legendary metas now.. (I only got 14 secrets, and people in my guild have LESS then me still..) It will take a few months before all casuals start to get it, and blizzard can start to balance them.



    Any true mage will know how to min/max dps with or without nerfs.
    ..the rest will complain and/or re-roll..
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  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissemoen View Post
    You know it's poor design when some classes are getting more "fun" out of the effort it takes to obtain the item then others.

    At least the new 600 cloak will be equal to all classes.
    No, that's just a fact of the matter when you have non-cosmetic classes in your game.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by dark666105 View Post
    Are you sure that balance druid wasn't just better than you Hauntedd?
    We're both good players.. and I only brought up LFR runs cause it was solid data (I'm 523 and 5/12H.. not just a player who only runs LFR).. I do not get what is so hard to understand, classes should not be getting 6-7% proc rates when others are getting 40-50%. Boomkins weren't even that far behind and now they are just stupid good. I've been talking a lot about boomkins, but it doesn't even end there, if their intent was to "balance" the specs around this meta, they dropped the ball with all warlock specs.

    Change our 0.3 coefficient to 0.7 or 0.8 like the other low coefficient specs and problem solved.
    Last edited by Hauntedd; 2013-04-21 at 06:48 PM.

  17. #157
    But if then that makes fire mage dps too high what would you suggest then?

  18. #158
    The legendary should be an equal dps increase for all classes. Balancing classes around the meta gem just punishes lower ilvl of the classes. Buff or nerf other aspects of the said class, don't balance around a legendary meta gem.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdiculous View Post
    The legendary should be an equal dps increase for all classes. Balancing classes around the meta gem just punishes lower ilvl of the classes. Buff or nerf other aspects of the said class, don't balance around a legendary meta gem.
    You obviously haven't been reading this topic. If they balanced around low ilvls/people not having the legendary gem, fire would be out of control by the time people got geared up. Sure, it sucks that classes have to be balanced around the legendary gem, but it's pretty much a necessity.

  20. #160
    So 30% haste for 10% of time is supposed to be 3% dps increase over 3% critical damage done when your critical stikes are starting to be over 50% average.. I somehow don't see how 30% haste for 10 seconds every 110 seconds is over 5% dps increase..

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    You obviously haven't been reading this topic. If they balanced around low ilvls/people not having the legendary gem, fire would be out of control by the time people got geared up. Sure, it sucks that classes have to be balanced around the legendary gem, but it's pretty much a necessity.
    And why wont they balance fire that it wouldn't be such a problem..

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