1. #1

    Noxxic / Icy-Veins vs MMO-Champion Questions.

    MMO's Destro thread says

    Grim of Serv/Sup: Haste==Crit > Mastery

    But noxxic / Icy-Veins

    Crit > haste = Mastery


    So my question is, Which is more accurate? Im still thinking if i should reforge my crit > Haste or keep going for crit.

  2. #2
    Unfortunately, I don't know. But my conclusion would be that it doesn't really matter and you can do what you want to (isn't that how it's supposed to be?).

    If you don't find an answer, try it out yourself and compare.

  3. #3
    Mr Robot says these two builds are options:

    PvE: Default Build
    Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery
    The latest simulations show Grimoire of Supremacy as the highest DPS; these stat weights were created assuming that talent choice. All three secondary stats are very close in value - this setup gives a slight edge in single-target DPS. Against two targets, Mastery might give a slight edge.
    PvE: Grimoire of Sacrifice
    Hit > Mastery > Crit > Haste
    This gearing strategy gives the best DPS when using Grimoire of Sacrifice. It is a fairly substantial DPS loss compared to using Grimoire of Supremacy - almost 5% according to the latest simulations.

    I don't know warlocks but perhaps this sheds light on the two different stat strategies.

  4. #4
    The MMo-C guide is written and reviewed by guys that play Destro Warlock as much as they can, and prefer it over other specs, specialising in it. The Noxxic guide is just based of what a basic SimC run will tell you based on some generic gear profile. There might not even have been a lock involved in it. I'd personally prefer the advice of the playing experts at MMO-C.

    Besides that, this is all single target, where there are little single target fights in ToT to begin with. In reality Mastery will be more valuable, due to AoE.
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  5. #5
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    secondary stats dont matter. To put it simply, if your dps is bad, its not a haste>mastery or mastery>haste issue...

  6. #6
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaeevictiss View Post
    secondary stats dont matter. To put it simply, if your dps is bad, its not a haste>mastery or mastery>haste issue...
    They do matter, more then you think. Of course you won't be doing good dps if you are completely wrong with your rotation, but being wrongly geared has a big impact on dps as well.

    Also, don't post things if you've nothing useful to say. The OP is just asking for advice of which guide is better, there was never anything mentioned that he has dps issues or whatsoever.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-04-04 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    They do matter, more then you think. Of course you won't be doing good dps if you are completely wrong with your rotation, but being wrongly geared has a big impact on dps as well.
    ive ran the sims, people on IV have ran the sims, people on EJ have ran the sims. There is a very small difference between high haste vs high mastery builds...but this only started recently with 5.2 before a lot of the lock changes, for aff at least, mastery was HUGE, now they are very close and come down to mere playstyle. If you want to squeeze every last 200-400 dps out then you can probably pick one over the other, but as far as 90% of the community is concerned it is not a very big deal.

  8. #8
    I would personally always go with what the Masters of Destruction" says, aka. Brusalk and the other competent warlocks here on MMC-C before I went to Noxxic.
    I don't always do what the guide tells me to do, but I know it's as correct as it can be seeign as the Masters of Destruction with their felfire struck chieftain Brusalk at the throne made an effort to create the guide.

    We all know a full crit build, ignoring haste and mastery is the most fun though!
    There always has to be a "free hippie warlock" amongst the fire gobbling who just goes berserk amongst the order that is... "The Chaos Weaving Fire Maniacs of Doom and Gloom ya'll" ©.

  9. #9
    Even if those guides based on simcraft tell you that crit>haste>mastery it doesnt mean you should reforge everything blindly to one stat or another. It only means that adding 1000 of one stat will give you 1000*stat_weight. You might be surprised by the numbers you get after you reforge everything to haste or crit.
    Destruction stats are so close to each other that you need to understand what they do and which encounter favors which playstyle.

  10. #10
    You know, you could rewrite those weightings as:

    Crit = Haste > Mastery
    vs
    Crit > haste = Mastery

    So really, the only point of contention is the value of haste, which could be slightly different in sims based on breakpoints.
    To be safe, why not just reforge crit > haste > mastery, since that fulfills both conditions?

  11. #11
    I think, I just need to point it out, as Brusalk once said and I am a big beliver of also, learn what every stat does. Learn what happens when you decrease one stat to almost 0 and another to 15,000. When you know everything every stat does for you, you know exactly how to reforge, or well... you have a much better understanding of what to reforge.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Leyl's Avatar
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    The fact is that Brusalk, Zinnin, and Evrelia are top notch players and masters of their respective arts. Their knowledge is power. Icy Veins and Noxxic do not offer these living libraries. They simply offer conjecture based on an imperfect machine. SimCraft is a useful tool, but you need to use it on yourself every time you get a gear upgrade to find out your stat weights. Reforge plot points are more important to be concerned with when using SimCraft. You should also be using Reforge Lite when you find your stat weights.

    For myself, haste, crit, and mastery are nearly all equal. Everyone's gear is different, and results will vary.

    Head to Simulationcraft.org and use the software on your character.

  13. #13
    Aw guys, you're making me blush.


    On topic, my results in the Destro Guide are a combination of both sims and in-game experience. In general though, sims will pretty much always undervalue mastery. By how much is the question, and that is much harder to quantify.

    In addition, the results I mention are only for single target results. Once you add more targets into the mix stats become vastly different. When you're able to FnB, mastery becomes exceptional. When you can SBurn/CBolt a LOT, then mastery becomes exceptional. When you can maintain cleave, haste and crit and mastery stay relatively equal to where they are on single target.

    It also depends heavily on your playstyle, as mastery with low numbers of targets can only be as good as the person using it. If you're bad at timing when to CBolt/SBurn, then the value of mastery will be bad, as it's dependent on your skill as a player. If you're extremely good at it, then you'll probably see better returns from mastery than sims would lead you to believe.



    I mostly included that stat section, not really as a guideline on how to reforge for every fight ever all the time, but instead so people can see how drastically stats change even with just pets changing. I should probably emphasize this point in the guide however. (Something to look forward to this weekend I suppose :P)

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Rivyr's Avatar
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    I used the MMO-c guid on my warlock, she is a relatively fresh 90 sporting a hodgepodge of heroic blues, pvp items, and lfr epics. Her DPS was about 50-55k depending on fights. After useing the MMO-C guide and running her through mr.robot as well as a bit of rotation practice, I have her up to 65-70k. I am still a long way off from even being decently geared or haveing a good stat spread so it will be fun to see what she can do in 502 tot LFR gear.

    Brusalk obviously knowns what s/he is talking about and from my experience, it is pretty effective.

    ill also say that the MMo-C paladin guide is fantastic as is the warrior one.

  15. #15
    To the OP: One thing you need to realize is that a guide is just that. A guide. It is like a map going from point A to point B. If you've ever used google maps, you have been faced with 3-4 different routes you can choose from, one taking the freeway and shaving 5 minutes off your trip, and one taking the main roads and saving you a 5 miles off of your trip. Either way you go, you will eventually get there.

    The issue with the AMR and Noxxic guides is that they assume a specific set of gear, and use the weights from that set of gear to get default stat values. This is good as a starting point, however gear changes at an alarming rate this patch (usually 1-2 pieces per week if you are lucky) and unless you are simming your character with every upgrade with SimC, the stat weights in all of the guides are like a broken clock - only right for a split second twice a day. The guides are a good starting point, but you need to use SimC for your specific set of gear to get the right balance of stats.

    If you don't know how to use simcraft - watch Evrelia's vid. It explains how to get stat weights for your gear, how to get reforge plots for your gear, and how to use this information to reforge and gem your gear.

  16. #16
    Answer is stack as much crit as possible and chaos bolt mania. Im stacking straight crit right now, 10 gems 320 crit, 2x480 JC crit gems. Raid buffed im at 31k sp, 60% mastery and around 14% haste, 30% and change crit. Im also using gosac as well and roughly every 2 incenerates with rain of fire up is granting me an ember, my dps has skyrocketed way above what simc suggest I should be doing on single target heavy movement fights. In poorly itemized 516ish gear, I am now pulling roughly 190K on aoe and around 155k single target.
    Last edited by Ailerist; 2013-04-05 at 02:49 AM.

  17. #17
    I've been ignoring my sim stat weights lately and going HEAVY mastery. My ego loves the feeling of 1.9 million chaos bolts on any fight with a damage boost. CDs, pot, procs, pool on Jin'rokh easily breaks 2mil.

    Fact is, all three are absurdly close this tier. Haste/crit is the consensus for PURE single target while Mastery/crit is ahead for cleave/aoe. Megaera is theoretically pure single target, but crit is the best option here. Crit havoc'd incins/conflags are nice. I suppose on single target the ember spells are quantity over quality while cleave/aoe is the opposite.

    TL;DR
    It depends on the fight. Sim. Try things out in LFR. Try things out in normal. Your answer is not my answer. Or his/her answer. Destruction is not a cookie-cutter build spec.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome darkminaz's Avatar
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    i go on mastery, there is nothing that beats 2 chaosbolts that hit like a truck :P
    weeeee booom massive crit *happy time* ^^

  19. #19
    I also just went to 9400 crit, and the rest into mastery, basicly keeping haste at a "healthy" low 4000 rating without buffs. I just prefer the slow and heavy playstyle I guess.
    Also works a bit better/funnier for Demonology.

    Should say I rarely run with GoSac btw, almost always GoServ.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post


    On topic, my results in the Destro Guide are a combination of both sims and in-game experience. In general though, sims will pretty much always undervalue mastery. By how much is the question, and that is much harder to quantify.
    If you use multiple enemies or the more dynamic fightstyle HecticAddCleave you'll see Mastery >> Haste > Crit in the sim. The (unfortunate) result however is that you need to reforge/ gear different for other fights.

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