[MW] Haste 27.76% worth it?

[Angrie]

Reg , don't even bother with this guy, he obviously believes that if u go haste, u have 0 crit and will never ever crit . I believe he live under a bridge as well.

Are you his fanboy???? Do you use his Spreadsheet?

I think a point you are missing in your comparison on what scales with haste is that even uplift scales indirectly with haste in that more haste = more chi = more uplifts.

Prove that you generate more chi via Soothing Mists RNG with haste.
You can't. It's practicality / RNG.
Prove that you generate chi faster via Jab with haste
The benefits to the GCD do not apply to everyone and because of lag is minimal.
Prove that you generate chi faster via spinning crane kick.
Anyone could cancel SCK to quickly generate Chi.

Prove that 1 extra crit with a Uplift is greater than the 3 extra Renewing mist ticks
+~30,000 uplift vs +(~6,000x3) ~18,000 ReM

Uplift benefits more from extra crit % than ReM gaining an extra tick.

Why do I get the feeling that people are thinking that i think the 6141 haste cap is bad?
I don't think that, i never said that.

This argument is about going above 6141 OR sitting at like 4300 haste cause you think haste is great.

Also that the 3145 haste cap is a superior cap to be at.
If you're geared and your minimum haste is partially to the next cap, you should stretch to the 6141 cap. This is because being over the cap by a bit does not make you gain any effective value from haste till 6141. Any value of haste over 6141 is ineffective and starts reducing the effective healing.

[Deleted]

I'd prefer to dip out of the bar to fight. The victuals vendor prefers it that way too.

wat

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh!!!!!!!!!!!! but a crit IS an extra heal. And yes i understand that that extra heal from haste can crit. I'm not arguing that at all. But going out of your way MORE ticks when CRIT can do that same thing but better. Going PAST 6141 haste is not benefical when you can get crit and benefit EVERY heal in the same "extra tick" fashion.

I hope you get it. Please get it. I don't want to have to get my microwave instruction manual out for you...

What if say I got in a full extra round of ticks before my 14 TFT targets were completely healed than I would have otherwise. Didn't I just get the equivalent of 14+ crits? You are oversimplifying things.

You mean we actually get to PLAY this game? I thought we just talked about how to play constantly in playground brawls.

wat

That's what i thought. And at 8 minutes, if that ever happens, it probably RNGs its way ahead again 4 seconds later.

So you think because crit > haste for a source of 10% at best of our healing with an incredibly low proc scalar means crit > haste for everything else?

I find it fun to do it all free-hand. I remember a time before reforge calculators and Mr Robots. When half your skill was dependent on your own ability to itemize your gear. Separated the dudes in epics and the scrubs in blues.

That's nice, but if you ask for my math again I'm not going to write it down in pencil and snail mail it to you when it's quite readily available.

TAKE THAT SWINE!

ok

What if i have high ping? Is that GCD reduction going to benefit me? I mean it would me, cause I make money and have a nice computing device. But will it benefit New York Joe playing on an Oceanic server?

What GCD reduction? We innately have a 1 second GCD. Haste doesn't benefit the GCD past that.

ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN (blowing the buzzer). Wrong. See warriors are very similar to monks. Warriors actually pool their Raging Blows for when they are enraged with Colossus Smash up. So they can do the most damage. Similarly we'll pool Chi, Thunder Focus Tea, and Chi Brew, to use it when it will heal the most. Burst DPS meet Burst healer.

If you offered a warrior an extra free no cost 1k haste I doubt they'd deny it, .

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 07:59 PM ----------

Gonna leave this to work on the MK3, I'll be back to see if you can conjure any real math.

[Anticard]

I am glad my comment about being at the 9145 break point has sparked some more discussion on the matter. I hope it can become a little more civil and subjective than it has been.

For those curious about my gear/forging/gemming, my monk is Punchcard on Sargeras-US.

I like where my current haste point is. Soothing feels pretty potent at this haste level, and the chi generation is quick and smooth.

My logs typically breakdown every fight with RM and uplift as top 2 heals. After that it can vary depending on the fight. IMO, the loss of a few % crit, is worth going for the extra tick of RM.

Go to any class forums and there will be a haste vs. crit argument for most of them. I prefer the guaranteed heal that this haste point gives me, and I am fine with the cost being a few crit %.

The difficulty and cost of getting 9145 haste will become easier with gear, and crit will rise along with it. It will be no different than what most people are already saying with haste points and ilvl.(No 2pc 3145, 2pc 6141)

Some of you make it sound like crit is the end all, be all stat. If someone wanted to, I am sure they could make a pure crit build and have some success. However there is still going to be the chance that something doesn't crit. It lacks the reliability of haste, and that I don't like.

I still believe that even with my crit being slightly lower than some of you right now, which will increase with gear, that I have a good balance of crit vs haste.
I have no plans of going any higher than my current haste point, just to maintain it and add crit from here.

I am sure my response has repeated itself and not added any real numbers to the discussion, which I am sure will be looked down upon. However, I like where my current stats are at. I will try to work on some numbers after work or later in the day when I don't have too much going on.

TL;DR 9145 haste is worth the cost of a few crit % IMO.

[Angrie]

What if say I got in a full extra round of ticks before my 14 TFT targets were completely healed than I would have otherwise. Didn't I just get the equivalent of 14+ crits? You are oversimplifying things.

Yes, you got 14 crits then. But i really want to know why your raid was still trying if 11 people were dead.

So you think because crit > haste for a source of 10% at best of our healing with an incredibly low proc scalar means crit > haste for everything else?

I didn't say that. But that 10% is still 10%. If you had a 10% chance to get a dollar every time you tied your shoes, would you tie your shoes or buy shoes with velcro? You may not get a dollar everytime you tie your shoes, but you'll be richer than wearing velcro.

That's nice, but if you ask for my math again I'm not going to write it down in pencil and snail mail it to you when it's quite readily available.

Postman needs to make money too!

What GCD reduction? We innately have a 1 second GCD. Haste doesn't benefit the GCD past that.

O yea? Learn something new everyday. You just shoved it hard in my direction then.

If you offered a warrior an extra free no cost 1k haste I doubt they'd deny it, .

The warriors buff to haste would be the same as MWs going from Tiger to Serpent stance. It was free and they still don't want haste.

[nowish]

Are you his fanboy???? Do you use his Spreadsheet?

[

We are buttbuddehs. You wana join in?

Would you mind coming with something more... like... nonirrational (aka rational) arguments about the cold war? Since I see none in your posts big fellah.


on topic: I love how he complains that the rng with haste and soothing chi gen is too rng to see that haste increases it's generation. When he is loving crit, which is purely based on RNG. Sense not make... Im starting to seriously believe that the pie is a lieat this current stage.

[Totaltotemic]

This pissing contest with all of the personal bickering is getting tiresome, let's get back to some real discussion with facts, because people seem to be somewhat confused.

Fact 1) Every 1% haste increases how quickly you cast by 1% of what you would do with no haste.

Fact 2) Every 1% crit increases healing by 1% of what you would do with no crit AND 1% of the amount of Mana Tea you'd get if you had no crit.

Fact 3) (For Mistweavers) 283 haste rating = 1% haste, and 600 crit rating = 1% crit, this means that for every 1% crit you can get 2.12% haste (this is where haste gives more HPS)

Fact 4) Crit affects every heal possible, haste does not

Fact 5) Crit gives extra mana, whereas haste costs extra mana, creating a large mana difference between the two that must be made up with some amount of Spirit

Fact 6) The "heals can still crit even if you don't gear for crit" qualifier in any calculation whatsoever is irrelevant in terms of the haste vs crit discussion, we are talking about overall effectiveness, not RNG bullshit. If you lack 1% crit, then you will not have that extra 1% crit overall, we can't magically make it appear because we will it so.

Fact 7) The overall difference in throughput of 600 crit instead of haste (ignoring mana) is 1% of non-crit healing minus [2.12% increase in healing on spells that are affected by haste + (2.12% of SCK/Soothing chi gains converted into equivalent Uplifts or Enveloping Mists)].

Fact 8) The overall mana difference of 600 crit instead of haste is 1% of non-crit Mana Tea procs (or chi spent/4) plus [2.12% net mana cost of SCK/Soothing (after expected Mana Tea) used throughout a fight]. Convert to mp5 and convert again to Spirit to get a final value in difference.

Fact 9) The total difference in effectiveness of 600 crit instead of haste is equal to the difference in throughput plus the difference in mana as a value of Spirit.


Now, assuming you've all followed that, where we run into our intellectual differences are in the equations in #7 and #8 as the value of "extra Uplifts" is disputed as well as the number of expected SCKs/Soothings and Mana Teas. This is further complicated by the level 45 talents as the value of haste is diminished with Chi Brew (extra portion of healing that is not affected by haste) but increased with Ascension (lower net mana costs on SCK/Soothing), whereas Crit is increased by Chi Brew by a small amount and Ascension by a large amount.

With the large number of variables in SCK/Soothing usage, Mana Tea usage, total chi, talent usage, and damage patterns on a fight, it's unlikely that there is a solid answer. One thing is certain though, neither stat is better in every circumstance, the best you can hope for is try to stick with one that will simply be better in more scenarios than the other. In the end, it's not all that important.

[Angrie]

We are buttbuddehs. You wana join in?

Would you mind coming with something more... like... nonirrational (aka rational) arguments about the cold war? Since I see none in your posts big fellah.


on topic: I love how he complains that the rng with haste and soothing chi gen is too rng to see that haste increases it's generation. When he is loving crit, which is purely based on RNG. Sense not make... Im starting to seriously believe that the pie is a lie in this stage.

Sorry, I don't want to help you with your homework. But i hear wikipedia is credible source.

On the topic of you: Putting words in my mouth is cool.
I know seventh graders than put forth more grammatical prowess in their texting than you can put into any part of your filth. However, if you want to make an ass of yourself you can continue to regurgitate english through whatever peg may be in the way of your mouth.

OR

Actually grow a spine and discuss the subject without resorting to side taking because you enjoy the stench of Reglitch's rectum.

[Malthanis]

Let's keep things civil, please. Bickering and jabbing (ha, pun) at each other isn't helping the conversation at all.

[Deleted]

Fact 1 is wrong, for example 50% haste will not make a 2 second cast 1 second. Haste increases the amount of spells you get in a given time, i.e. 50% haste is 50% more spells, 100% haste is 100% more spells.

Fact 6 is wrong, if you have more heals, you're going to get more crit rolls meaning the crit you do have is more valuable with haste.

Say I have a 5 second cast and a fight that lasts exactly 5 seconds. I have exactly 57000 rating to spend on itemization. I could go 100% crit and get 200% of the damage, or I could use 25646 rating to get an extra cast (100% haste) and still have exactly 57.25% crit left over. That means I get 2 casts, one will crit and one will hit for regular amounts leaving me with 300% of regular damage in the same time frame. Obviously for output, the latter is superior, for efficiency the former is.

Fact 7 is grossly oversimplified.

Fact 8, again, grossly oversimplified. Especially regarding RPPM regeneration/clearcasting procs.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

intressting discussion, but please people, keep it rational. if 2 people have different opinions, yelling at or making fun of eachother never ever solved the problem.

@angrie: I think nobody would argue that 1% crit is not as valuable as 1% haste for us mistweavers, because as you stated, haste only affects a certain part of our heals.
now, how much haste would it take to be better than 1% crit? 2% haste? 10% ? this is really hard to evaluate acuratly.
Fact is, that for the amount of crit rating on gear required to get 1% crit, we can get 2.22% haste instead (@totaltotemic: as we are taking about raiding, we can safely assume to have the hastebuff, that further increases our haste from gear by 5%). At the breakpoints, we get nearly full benefit of that haste. (in between it's only a hps gain, not hpm. and ReM specific: lower hot runtime is bad)

You should also not forget, that in practice 1% crit is not 2.06% more heal, crits tend to overheal more likely. I would guess 1.9% more heal on average would be more appropriate. (yes, thats quite high, but due to the fact that a lot of our heals are quite low and regular, crits often have the chance to do their healing, just checked that on a WoL log of mine of the first 6 bosses, resulted in 1.93%)

While I see that a full crit be probably is just as viable (bumping up uplifts heal is really great!), I'm staying with my "get highest reasonable hastebreakpoint" gearing

[Deleted]

in between it's only a hps gain, not hpm

In terms of raw numbers? No. In terms of actual effective healing it's very likely it will.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

In terms of raw numbers? No. In terms of actual effective healing it's very likely it will.

what do you mean with raw numbers?
In any case, getting more haste increases a hots tick frequency, don't know what your point is

[Deleted]

Raw calculation, when you apply the fact there's a ceiling to people's health and there's a finite window your HoTs can tick in where they're actually effective you'll see it's very possible for haste to increase your effective HPM.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Raw calculation, when you apply the fact there's a ceiling to people's health and there's a finite window your HoTs can tick in where they're actually effective you'll see it's very possible for haste to increase your effective HPM.

well you're still doing the same amount of raw healing as you said, but maybe you'll snipe a few more heals, thats possible yes. but that doesn't really help anyone, it's the hps gain that matters

[Deleted]

How doesn't it help anyone?

[Totaltotemic]

Fact 1 is wrong, for example 50% haste will not make a 2 second cast 1 second. Haste increases the amount of spells you get in a given time, i.e. 50% haste is 50% more spells, 100% haste is 100% more spells.

Fact 6 is wrong, if you have more heals, you're going to get more crit rolls meaning the crit you do have is more valuable with haste.

Say I have a 5 second cast and a fight that lasts exactly 5 seconds. I have exactly 57000 rating to spend on itemization. I could go 100% crit and get 200% of the damage, or I could use 25646 rating to get an extra cast (100% haste) and still have exactly 57.25% crit left over. That means I get 2 casts, one will crit and one will hit for regular amounts leaving me with 300% of regular damage in the same time frame. Obviously for output, the latter is superior, for efficiency the former is.

Fact 7 is grossly oversimplified.

Fact 8, again, grossly oversimplified. Especially regarding RPPM regeneration/clearcasting procs.

So set on his haste stacking that he has to twist what I said to mean entirely different things...

Of course haste and crit work better together than each one does alone, that's kind of how those stats work in this game. That's why I specifically pointed out in #1 and #2 that it is 1% of baseline, not multiplicative. You haven't disproven or corrected anything I've said, you're still ignoring mana differences with a hand-wave of "grossly oversimplified" despite the fact that I stated exactly what the stats do and do not do. Get some integrity and stop hiding behind your spreadsheets and look at this from a 2+2=4 viewpoint. You have fundamentally wrong ideas about how crit and haste work, everything you do is fruit from the poisonous tree.

[Deleted]

I'm not twisting anything I'm taking you word for word;

Fact 1) Every 1% haste increases how quickly you cast by 1% of what you would do with no haste.

This would imply 1% haste makes you cast 1% faster, not the case.
This would also imply 100% haste makes you cast 100% faster, obviously still not the case.

Fact 6) The "heals can still crit even if you don't gear for crit" qualifier in any calculation whatsoever is irrelevant in terms of the haste vs crit discussion, we are talking about overall effectiveness, not RNG bullshit. If you lack 1% crit, then you will not have that extra 1% crit overall, we can't magically make it appear because we will it so.

[taking into account,] "heals can still crit even if you don't gear for crit" (...) in any calculation whatsoever is irrelevant in terms of the haste vs crit discussion

Demonstrably not.

7&8 are just too simple, I've already said why. As for the mana thing, yeah that's bogus I've totally acknowledged it. I don't believe it really matters as long as I have enough total mana for the task at hand which is almost always the case.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 11:31 PM ----------

I mean really, you could argue that every aspect of gameplay could translate into an equivalent spirit value. If that was the case though I'd absolutely never change from Zen Sphere, Ascension, unglyphed Mana Tea, and Celerity with Chi Torpedo. Those combined are such a huge gain in mana it's ridiculous.

[Anticard]

I think this argument has gotten slightly off topic.

It seems everyone agrees that both stats have value and affect our healing in certain ways.
I believe that one should go for an appropriate haste breakpoint based on gear. Specific fights can also affect gem/forging options.
And as our ilvl increases it will be quite easy to obtain that 9145 breakpoint.

What I think people should be trying to discuss/prove is whether the gains from breakpoint to breakpoint are worth the difference in crit.

When I changed my gear from the 6141 point to 9145 I lost 3.5% crit, and 400 spirit.
In my mind making that swap was well worth it.
RM does the majority of my healing already, and adding the extra tick is just increasing that.
My SM is a 6s channel, SCK is 1.7s (In SWS stance, no raid haste buff).
Haste offers guaranteed throughput on those heals. I realize haste does not affect uplift, and a few other heals directly. However, haste can increase how often those abilities can be used through chi generators like SM.

[Deleted]

Losing well over 1.4k spellpower probably isn't worth it in my opinion.

[Anticard]

Losing well over 1.4k spellpower probably isn't worth it in my opinion.

I should say that the trinket swap was Relic of Chi-Ji to Qin-xi's with the int proc. With some more gear I would bring back a 2nd int trinket.

Upon further investigation, it looks like I can change other stuff around, drop a little spirit and keep double int trinkets.