Fix Mage burst (not the opener :V)

[Deleted]

Since i see alot of posts about ppl complaining on rogues :

damage
They never die GawD
omg i cant stay alive if i do nothing against a rogue opener when he blows everything
How mage can deal with rogues ?
etc etc

I've spot that video on the official forum, maybe someone have seen it before but it's cool to share.

* im not defending anything or anyone just putting out some evidence that ppl seems to ignore voluntarily.

Some info:
Mage and Rogue both have 66% resi +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stb_vaz-RVc

[Chestbrah]

Statistics tell me one video of a mage bursting a rogue (I assume? I'm at work so I can't watch) is a small enough sample size to call irrelevant. You see mages asking how to deal with rogues because... well... in a real world arena scenario they can now basically make a mage useless for ~30 seconds and/or dead, which is easily enough time to win a game.

Additionally, mage burst is on par with destro, bm, arms, etc. And mages can't do anything while blocked/immune, unlike other classes.

[Deleted]

Even the opener is quite high with mage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdqN2u7yZY

[Snuggli]

So, the Mage popped his on use, had his proc dps trinket up, had 2 stacks of FoF, used frost orb, deeped with a bomb up, casted a full frost bolt / lance shatter as the bomb exploded and followed it up with a frostfire bolt.

...and neither the Druid or Rogue decided to use a single cooldown? If the Rogue had already used cloak and trinket before the Mage popped any offensive CDs then it's his own fault for dying.

Elite gear or not, he got outplayed.

[Viggers]

Statistics tell me one video of a mage bursting a rogue (I assume? I'm at work so I can't watch) is a small enough sample size to call irrelevant. You see mages asking how to deal with rogues because... well... in a real world arena scenario they can now basically make a mage useless for ~30 seconds and/or dead, which is easily enough time to win a game.

Additionally, mage burst is on par with destro, bm, arms, etc. And mages can't do anything while blocked/immune, unlike other classes.

destro? yes chaos bolt hits like a truck. but getting a chaos bolt off is tricky. it also wont kill you. getting two off means you got outplayed. destro is not even close to on par with mages

[Deleted]

No one should be able to pull off trinket/cd up or not those dmg in like 2 sec, maybe would be ok in 10 secs but not in 2 global

[Senathor]

So, the Mage popped his on use, had his proc dps trinket up, had 2 stacks of FoF, used frost orb, deeped with a bomb up, casted a full frost bolt / lance shatter as the bomb exploded and followed it up with a frostfire bolt.

...and neither the Druid or Rogue decided to use a single cooldown? If the Rogue had already used cloak and trinket before the Mage popped any offensive CDs then it's his own fault for dying.

Elite gear or not, he got outplayed.

There's absolutely no legitimate justification for a class with one -shot capabilities. Without CDs he definitely should die fast, but not instantly, that's ridiculous... I'm starting to think that Frost DK isn't the #1 spec on the easy spec list anymore... Rogues burst a lot but they cannot kill anyone in 1 sec. Nobody can, but Mages...

[Hand Banana]

Im guessing this was before the frost bomb nerf. I dont see any mages using frost bomb anymore, my friends crits for like 70k frozen on geared players and hes 100% geared as you can be right now. Nether tempest shits on it from what Ive seen.

[Deleted]

Im guessing this was before the frost bomb nerf.

Dunno man they've 380k + Hp and the mage armory display pretty much the same hp so i think is taken 3-4 days ago

[Hand Banana]

Dunno man they've 380k + Hp and the mage armory display pretty much the same hp so i think is taken 3-4 days ago

Video quality is so bad I cant read the health or names lol. Even still, frost bomb doesnt hit for much anymore and any 3s team using it is gimping themselves from what I have heard. Our mage tried it one game and did less than half of his usual stupidly high damage. Frost bomb is too easily counterable.

Honestly Im much more concerned with nether tempest FoF procs and mages spamming 60k+ FFb or Icelances every single gcd. The damage they throw from instants when they are proccing is insane.

[Senathor]

Video quality is so bad I cant read the health or names lol. Even still, frost bomb doesnt hit for much anymore and any 3s team using it is gimping themselves from what I have heard. Our mage tried it one game and did less than half of his usual stupidly high damage. Frost bomb is too easily counterable.

Honestly Im much more concerned with nether tempest FoF procs and mages spamming 60k+ FFb or Icelances every single gcd. The damage they throw from instants when they are proccing is insane.

Who care about consistent overall damage when you can one-shot?

[Snuggli]

There's absolutely no legitimate justification for a class with one -shot capabilities. Without CDs he definitely should die fast, but not instantly, that's ridiculous... I'm starting to think that Frost DK isn't the #1 spec on the easy spec list anymore... Rogues burst a lot but they cannot kill anyone in 1 sec. Nobody can, but Mages...

It wasn't a '1 second global'. It was 5 spell globals, 9 actual spells and about 7-8 seconds of preparation for it all to land at once:
Frost Nova [1] > Hard-casted Frost bomb [2] > Icyveins 1shot macro > Glyphed deep freeze > Frost Orb [3] > Focus CS > Casted Frostbolt [4] > Ice lance > FFB [5])

5 globals with every single CD popped which killed someone who used absolutely nothing - there was so many things the team could've done to survive:

• Rogue could've cloaked
• Rogue could've trinketed
• Rogue could've blinded the Mage the first global out of deep (before FFB)
• Rogue could've vanished
• Druid could've trinketed the CS and typhooned
• Druid could've trinketed the CS and beamed
• Druid could've trinketed the CS and NS-Cloned Mage

Any single 1 of these things would've kept the Rogue alive. If they play it perfectly, they can never lose vs a Mage team - Cloak for every other frost orb, solar beam / ns / typhoon / vanish and blind all used for the deep in between cloaks.

The burst could maybe be toned down, but classes like Frost Mage need it. If they can't kill (or do massive damage) in a deep freeze, they'd never land kills.


PS: I don't play a Mage, but out of all the classes in PvP right now, Mages are one of the easiest to predict. When you lose vs a Mage, it is normally your own fault for not CD-managing right.

[Csnyder]

never had any issues with rogues as a mage, even as arcane i dont have an issue with them.
even as an arcane in pve gear. i get plenty of kills and lots of them are rogues.

[Bluesftw]

Rogues burst a lot but they cannot kill anyone in 1 sec. Nobody can, but Mages...

or can they? http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=229433

[xxf2dxx]

Wait, you mean classes can be countered by other classes? What's wrong with this exactly? It's like Frost Mages shitting on warriors since ever.

[Deleted]

or can they? http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=229433

the mage video i've linked and this one doesnt show "one shot" at least not on geared ppl, because is nearly impossible

But if you want compare the burst about rogues and mage we got something like this

frost orb + frost bomb + derp freeze + frostbolt and icelance -> this need in practice 1 global for the bomb and one for the shatter

ambush + ambush + evi + ambush + prem + evi + MfD + evi -> this need at least 7-8 global

are burst different with different counter, but one is 7-8 global the other 2-3...now you got the difference?

[Korgoth]

Ice Lance needs a 50% damage nerf. 60-80k in arena on an instant no CD spell. Its the level of stupid proc burst that Arms Warrior were stripped of in Cataclysm with the C Smash nerf. It is unacceptable that mages get a proc that lets them just blow someone up in a couple seconds, just like it was unacceptable that C Smash let warriors blow someone up in a couple seconds, BUT THEN GREG STREET DOESNT PLAY WARRIOR, SO MAGES WONT EAT THE NERF THEY FUCKING DESERVE.

But then maybe one day Greg Street will get moved to Titan and Mages will be fixed.

[Chestbrah]

Ice lance? Really? The mechanic is fine. Either you need FoF or frozen target to do big damage, otherwise it's a useless spell. It really doesn't make sense when you consider what some classes dots are ticking for. Mages are bursty. No one can stand a hard cast frostbolts any more, despite what you want it to be. Standing mage = dead mage against most every melee class, especially if paired with a supporting class. Therefore we have to run and gun. Nerf hunter damage if you want to talk ranged OP.

[Hand Banana]

List of Counters

Pretty much this. Its like letting a warrior go full reck/banner/avatar/trinket 1shotmacro on someone for 5 seconds on a rogue and doing nothing to peel it or reduce it. Or a BM hunter going full retard on a rogue with nothing attempting to stopping the damage. Mage burst is much easier to counter when they are frost bomb specced than say, hunters or rogues.

[Deleted]

It wasn't a '1 second global'. It was 5 spell globals, 9 actual spells and about 7-8 seconds of preparation for it all to land at once:
Frost Nova [1] > Hard-casted Frost bomb [2] > Icyveins 1shot macro > Glyphed deep freeze > Frost Orb [3] > Focus CS > Casted Frostbolt [4] > Ice lance > FFB [5])

no it's more like 2-3 global... frozen orb 1 global -> the 1 sec HARD cast bomb -> derp freeze and the shatter.

the other things are out of global (pet nova/ icyveins /cs), and the dmg start when the bomb is up, and the FFB is istant 100% after