Fix Mage burst (not the opener :V)

[Korgoth]

Ice lance? Really? The mechanic is fine. Either you need FoF or frozen target to do big damage, otherwise it's a useless spell. It really doesn't make sense when you consider what some classes dots are ticking for. Mages are bursty. No one can stand a hard cast frostbolts any more, despite what you want it to be. Standing mage = dead mage against most every melee class, especially if paired with a supporting class. Therefore we have to run and gun. Nerf hunter damage if you want to talk ranged OP.

You act like mages dont have by far the most control of any class. You can stand and cast, Blizzard has given you mutliple roots, slows, stuns, and gap openers to accommodate it; and even if you didnt, procing into obscene burst with a spammable instant is bullshit. Nice try scapegoating hunters and dot damage.

[siafu]

yes u can counter 300 different ways. but the mage can kill you in a deep every 30s... anyone who thinks that doesn't need a nerf is retarded. fake interrupt pom poly healer cast frostbomb, fozen orb and freeze, deep, frostbolt icelance icelance still in deep or probably with fingers procc from orb end with frostfire from bombed frostbomb it's pretty much dead whatever class it may be besides a paladin/priest/druid with barksin/painsu/bubble. it's not one shot obviously but considering this is the land of instant cc these days. having someone that can take anyone out in 4s is a bit much.

[Snuggli]

yes u can counter 300 different ways. but the mage can kill you in a deep every 30s... anyone who thinks that doesn't need a nerf is retarded. fake interrupt pom poly healer cast frostbomb, fozen orb and freeze, deep, frostbolt icelance icelance still in deep or probably with fingers procc from orb end with frostfire from bombed frostbomb it's pretty much dead whatever class it may be besides a paladin/priest/druid with barksin/painsu/bubble.

You say every 30s, but list PoM (1min 30s CD) and frozen orb (1min CD).

And a Priest with painsup or Druid with barkskin will easily survive it - especially if CS is down, because they'll just freecast back up to full health in front of the Mage who has nothing left but 5k icelances.

[Hand Banana]

yes u can counter 300 different ways. but the mage can kill you in a deep every 30s... anyone who thinks that doesn't need a nerf is retarded. fake interrupt pom poly healer cast frostbomb, fozen orb and freeze, deep, frostbolt icelance icelance still in deep or probably with fingers procc from orb end with frostfire from bombed frostbomb it's pretty much dead whatever class it may be besides a paladin/priest/druid with barksin/painsu/bubble. it's not one shot obviously but considering this is the land of instant cc these days. having someone that can take anyone out in 4s is a bit much.

Im not defending mages in any way, I believe deep nuking to be rediculous. But its also one of the most predictable and counterable burst setups, especially when they are using frost bomb. Giant whirling orb of blue death up? Check, LOS or D cd. Mage hardcasting frost bomb with deep off cd? Check, interrupt/los/blankcs/dispel/whatever. Nether tempest is far worse imo since the mage doesnt need to burst with deep or orb as he is constantly soft bursting with FoF procs. Just line up a cc or two and someones in trouble regardless.

[Chestbrah]

no it's more like 2-3 global... frozen orb 1 global -> the 1 sec HARD cast bomb -> derp freeze and the shatter.

the other things are out of global (pet nova/ icyveins /cs), and the dmg start when the bomb is up, and the FFB is istant 100% after

I didn't realize the amount of global was an opinion now? You say 2-3, and then list 3. And as others have mentioned, defenseless targets can be killed in several globals by many classes. Mages are just built for burst, not as much sustained as their other bursty friends rogues, fdk, war, hunt, etc. Cmon.

[siafu]

yes it can be predictable but sometimes it sure has fuck cant be avoided specially on open map like most are. all the mage has to do is fake till they use their interrupts and then go freecast all the way himself can poly/pom-poly-ring and deep next that immediatly 2 guys down for the coun. he's teammate can just do whatever on the 3rd player or just do dmg on the deep target and ignore shit.
the current burst inside a deep is insane. i honestly dont give shit if its op im just saying. this is a mmo i will never things to be balanced.
and people should be worried with the current spriest nerfs that are coming. cause atm with all this instant cc ur healers will not be dispeled anymore and wont get a second lifeline with swap. that was why spriests where so sought out for.

[Deleted]

So, the Mage popped his on use, had his proc dps trinket up, had 2 stacks of FoF, used frost orb, deeped with a bomb up, casted a full frost bolt / lance shatter as the bomb exploded and followed it up with a frostfire bolt.

...and neither the Druid or Rogue decided to use a single cooldown? If the Rogue had already used cloak and trinket before the Mage popped any offensive CDs then it's his own fault for dying.

Elite gear or not, he got outplayed.

The mage had only his On-use trinket activated. No proc trinket nor Incanters Ward. I (Markatt) had vannish and cloak left. Feels too bad when i die just cause i didn't trinket the deep (trinketed the earlier one).

[Deleted]

But then maybe one day Greg Street will get moved to Titan or AIDS and Mages will be fixed.

I'm not sure if he only plays mage. It seems he recently got a new DK and Hunter alt.

[Deleted]

I didn't realize the amount of global was an opinion now? You say 2-3, and then list 3.

Is an opinion because i dont want to take into account the frozen orb, you can set up it before to start the burst

[Deleted]

If you let a mage get off a frost bomb plus full deep and frozen orb without doing anything to counter it, then you should lose, since that is a mage's only opportunity to ever kill someone. Mage damage is by far the easiest to counter of any DPS class, as long as you don't go around blowing stuff like CoS or AMS in your opener and save your dispells for frost bomb.

[klaps_05]

so what you are saying is that you should be able to survive mage burst, or any classes burst as I am sure you would've made the same video regardless, without either of you doing anything.

good think Holinka has the reins now as he doesn't listen to complete idiots and uses actual feedback to make changes.

[ParanoiD84]

Mage damage is by far the easiest to counter of any DPS class

Destro lock?

[Deleted]

Ok, after destro locks, but they're terrible anyway, so I didn't count them (I actually play one).

[Deleted]

Ok, after destro locks, but they're terrible anyway, so I didn't count them (I actually play one).

spriest burst is pretty easy to counter too these days, maybe comes after mage.

[worsthitmanNa]

He could have cloak or the druid could have solar beamed the mage. Honestly its not gonna be fixed so deal with it or quit pretty much. I think its stupid but i am not blizzard.

[Senathor]

Ok, after destro locks, but they're terrible anyway, so I didn't count them (I actually play one).

In arenas maybe, in RBG's they're OP as fuck, ofc rbgs are irrlevent, just sayin

[Yvaelle]

In arenas maybe, in RBG's they're OP as fuck, ofc rbgs are irrlevent, just sayin

The key to fighting destro locks in RBGs is to bring mages and counterspell their Chaos Bolt casts - then you have like 10 more seconds before the enemy team can try to burst again It's a big part of why Demo for RBGs became so popular last season (and then got nerfed) - destro certainly hits harder - but you can't control a demo like you can a destro lock

---------- Post added 2013-04-06 at 02:12 AM ----------

If you let a mage get off a frost bomb plus full deep and frozen orb without doing anything to counter it, then you should lose, since that is a mage's only opportunity to ever kill someone. Mage damage is by far the easiest to counter of any DPS class, as long as you don't go around blowing stuff like CoS or AMS in your opener and save your dispells for frost bomb.

Can't counter that while stunned.

One of the biggest problems in PvP is the stuns that are part of burst cycles - it's very similar in effect to damage spells that are off the GCD. They all allow a player to essentially take multiple 'turns' before the enemy is given a chance to respond. This was the true problem with Taste for Blood - not necessarily the massive crits it could cause (all though some of them were pretty questionable), but rather that it allowed warriors to have extra turns (GCDs) during their burst cycle.

The same is true for Deep Freeze, perhaps even more so. One way to look at Deep Freeze is as a massive temporary damage buff - it causes the next spells the mage lands to Shatter - even if Deep Freeze didn't stun - was just a debuff, you would still use it every time you tried to capitalize on a burst window. It is both 'damage' and 'cc' at the same time - in the same way that Shockwave could do considerable damage, but was also a powerful crowd control effect. With Glyph of Deep Freeze, it's not only already both a worthy damage spell and a cc spell, but it's not even on the global cooldown - allowing frost mages to effectively take three turns (GCDs) in the time the enemy takes one.

Now, add on to that the problem of stuns during burst windows - which deny a player any opportunity to respond at all - and you enter a real dilemma - The mage starts out by taking 3 turns - one of which (DF) denies the enemy the next 3-4 turns - so that the opponent doesn't truly get a chance to respond for ~7 turns, and that assumes no follow-up stun from a partner. Now, obviously this is why 1v1 in WoW is fundamentally imbalanced - but generally - the impact of each team having two partners who are also taking actions should roughly cancel out.

I'm pretty good at chess, lets assume you are equally good - if we play - and then suddenly I get to make 7 moves before your next move - now we're playing frost-mage-chess Of course, mages aren't the only class with effectively off-GCD stuns and burst damage, but if you follow the trail you start to spot all the problematic abilities in pvp lately - TfB was an incredibly powerful move that ignored GCDs, Shockwave was two moves at the same time - as was Heroic Leap (damage+CC, or damage+gap closer respectively). Shadowdance is both a mobility and a damage cooldown, Devouring Plague is both my greatest source of damage and self-healing, Hunter pet abilities are off-GCD CC's they can use while bursting.

Effectively, off-GCD abilities (or abilities which perform multiple functions well in a single GCD) warp our perception of time - when time is non-linear - balance is probably impossible, frankly - it's surprising Blizzard has balanced pvp as well as they have now that competitive PvP is some kind of temporal war.

[pkm]

It's not the ice lance it's the frost fire bolt. That hits like a fucking freight train lol. Easy 70k in a global. Not many classes have that ability.

[panterarules]

I'm a fan! it's good to see there is potential for big burst. In 3v3 a mage has almost no chance to get this type of damage off with peels, dispels and offensive pressure. Not to mention a single global from a healer is enough to counter that burst. At the end of the day you had no pressure on the other team, no CC on them out of a plethora of stuns, silences and cyclone/blind. Your boomy had trinket up and didn't use it when the mage clearly had all cd's popped. I say GG, keep practicing and learn from this instead of making vids and complaining. Rogues are in an incredibly strong position right now especially against wizards.

[Deleted]

*snip*

Please don't post memes. Infracted