US Army's last tanks depart from Germany

[Deleted]

It is very amusing reading discussions about war machinery when nobody mentioned the human factor. In fact, the more amusing thing is that there are people who believe that the outcome of a war will be determined by conventional means or a budget and not by the will of the elite classes that pull the strings.

If anything the wars are won by the boots on the ground and lost by the suits in the office.

Just because the 'elite' wants something, that isn't going to make a fighting force better equipped or trained than the opposition. Budget does play a part...

[Wikiy]

Someone care to explain to me why the US kept all this military personnel/equipment there anyways? Was the paranoia that deep?

[Deleted]

Someone care to explain to me why the US kept all this military personnel/equipment there anyways? Was the paranoia that deep?

Yes, the Soviet menace was a very real threat, the top Brass in command took a lot of convincing the threat was over. Even now we have Generals that still think the Soviets will make a come back.

[Combatbutler]

It is about time, they are not needed here.

[Jackmoves]

The tanks are, I agree, however the Russians are really shit at logistics not to mention their military is flat out broke. They can barely afford to feed, clothe and pay their troops, let alone deploy them against modern well equipped European forces.

They are undergoing huge reforms now though, it started after the Georgia war which was a pretty big failure from a Russian pov. Spending has increased with a lot and they are in the process of re-organizing and modernizing their military on a very large scale, including abandoning the conscript system. 2020 is their current goal, thats when it should all be finished.

I think he is referring to napoleon and hitler.

And one of ours!

Charles the XII. The battle of Poltova.

Russia had opened their part of the war by invading the Swedish-held territories of Livonia and Estonia. Charles countered this by attacking the Russian besiegers at the Battle of Narva. The Swedish army of ten thousand men was outnumbered almost four to one by the Russians. Charles attacked under cover of a blizzard, effectively split the Russian army in two and won the battle. Many of Peter's troops that fled the battlefield drowned in the Narva River, and the total number of Russian fatalities reached about 10,000 at the end of the battle, while the Swedish troop lost 667 men.

Charles did not pursue the Russian army. Instead, he turned against Poland-Lithuania, which was formally neutral at this point, thereby disregarding Polish negotiation proposals supported by the Swedish parliament. Charles defeated the Polish king Augustus II and his Saxon allies at the Battle of Kliszow in 1702 and captured many cities of the Commonwealth. After the deposition of August as king of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, Charles XII put Stanisław Leszczyński, largely a puppet of Charles, on the throne.

Russian resurgence
Charles XII and Mazepa at the Dnieper River after Poltava by Gustaf Cederström

While Charles won several decisive battles in the Commonwealth and ultimately secured the coronation of his ally Stanisław Leszczyński and the surrender of Saxony, the Russian Tsar Peter the Great embarked on a military reform plan that improved the Russian army, using the effectively organized Swedes and other European standards for role model. Russian forces managed to penetrate Ingria and established a new city, Saint Petersburg, there. Charles planned an invasion of the Russian heartland, allying himself with Ivan Mazepa, Hetman of the Ukrainian Cossacks. The size of the invading Swedish army was peeled off as Charles left Leszczyński with some 24,000 German and Polish troops, departing eastwards from Saxony in late 1707 with some 35,000 men, adding a further 12,500 under Adam Ludwig Lewenhaupt marching from Livonia. Charles left the homeland with a defense of approximately 28,800 men, with a further 14,000 in Swedish Finland as well as further garrisons in the Baltic and German provinces.

After securing his "favorite" victory in the Battle of Holowczyn, despite being outnumbered over one to three against the new Russian army, Charles opted to march eastwards on Moscow rather than try to seize Saint Petersburg, founded from the Swedish town of Nyenskans five years earlier.[4] Peter the Great managed, however, to ambush Lewenhaupt's army at Lesnaya before Charles could combine his forces, thus losing valuable supplies, artillery and half of Lewenhaupt's men. Charles' Polish ally, Stanisław Leszczyński, was facing internal problems of his own. Charles expected the support of a massive Cossack rebellion led by Mazepa in Ukraine, with estimates suggesting Mazepa of being able to muster some 40,000 troops, but the Russians subjugated the rebellion and destroyed its capital Baturin before the arrival of the Swedish troops. The harsh climate took its toll as well, as Charles marched his troops for winter camp in Ukraine.

By the time of the decisive Battle of Poltava, Charles had been wounded, one-third of his infantry was dead, and his supply train was destroyed. The king was incapacitated by a coma resulting from his injuries and was unable to lead the Swedish forces. With the numbers of Charles' army reduced to some 23,000, with several wounded and handling the siege of Poltava, his general Carl Gustav Rehnskiöld had a clearly inferior force to face the fortified and modernized army of Tsar Peter, some 45,000. The Swedish assault ended in disaster, and the king fled with a small entourage south to the Ottoman Empire, where he set up camp at Bender with some 1,000 of his Caroleans ("Karoliner" in Swedish). The Swedish defeat at Poltava is considered by some historians to be the point where the downfall of the Swedish Empire was consummated and the Russian Empire was founded. The remainder of the army surrendered days later at Perevolochna under Lewenhaupt's command, most of them (including Lewenhaupt himself) spending the rest of their days in Russian captivity.

[Deleted]

Someone care to explain to me why the US kept all this military personnel/equipment there anyways? Was the paranoia that deep?

It's because they were jealous and afraid: Soviet army won the war against Hitler and liberated Berlin first. However my country could not be liberated without the help of the US army. Thanks goes to your grandfathers.

[Deleted]

It's because they were jealous and afraid: Soviet army won the war against Hitler and liberated Berlin first. However my country could not be liberated without the help of the US army. Thanks goes to your grandfathers.

Why would they be jealous?

[Deleted]

Because they wanted to save the world but Russia did.

[Deleted]

Because they wanted to save the world but Russia did.

Russia did not save the world, it was a team effort.

[dokilar]

my brother was stationed in germany several years back and he said it was quite an awesome spectacle to take in. its good to see that instead of just leaving them there to rot that we're actually taking the time to bring them back to the states to reimplemented etc. etc.

when my brother was stationed over there he said they were winding down a lot of programs over there and that it was quite amazing at how much shit they would just leave there.

[Deleted]

my brother was stationed in germany several years back and he said it was quite an awesome spectacle to take in. its good to see that instead of just leaving them there to rot that we're actually taking the time to bring them back to the states to reimplemented etc. etc.

when my brother was stationed over there he said they were winding down a lot of programs over there and that it was quite amazing at how much shit they would just leave there.

Thats because often it is cheaper to buy new kit than to pay to have it shipped back home, tanks being the obvious exception.

[Deleted]

Yes, the Alliance from the west and the Red army from the east. Both aiming to be the first to take Berlin and judge Hitler.

[Deleted]

Because they wanted to save the world but Russia did.

I'm not so sure of that... where I'm standing it just seemed we replaced one foreign dictator (Hitler) with another (Stalin). So I wouldn't call the USSR saving the world since... I doubt anyone in Eastern Europe and former USSR countries today will see it as being saved.

Yes, the Alliance from the west and the Red army from the east. Both aiming to be the first to take Berlin and judge Hitler.

If that was the goal, neither USSR nor USA/UK/France won since they didn't get to judge him.

[smelltheglove]

Russia did not save the world, it was a team effort.

i'll agree to this. and id have no objection to presenting this argument to my own countrymen that claim we saved the world

[Schattenlied]

Assuming Russian tanks could ever get there without breaking down or running out of fuel.

The T90 is a pretty damn decent tank... but yeah the military infrastructure that has to support them isn't great.

[Dakhath]

I have mixed feelings of this. While it's needed with the current state of affairs, one of the best periods of my life was as a young Infantry Officer in a tank division stationed in Germany. Thanks for the memories Deutschland, you're a beautiful country.

[Tierbook]

It's because they were jealous and afraid: Soviet army won the war against Hitler and liberated Berlin first. However my country could not be liberated without the help of the US army. Thanks goes to your grandfathers.

to be fair the only reason Russia got to Berlin first is because Patton was told by the president to slow down so that they could i cant remember which meeting it was decided that Russia would be able to get their first... maybe Yalta

[Deletedaccount1]

Most western europeans tried to conquer Russia and failed, not the other way around.

On topic: When will the American soldiers leave from their two bases in my country? They don't even pay rent...

That was because of the Scorched Earth Policy that Russians utilized against Hitler and Napoleon. Not something that would really work today.

[Urti]

I hope we keep some military presence in Germany. The bases there are crazy important from a medical point of view, and it's convenient for joint training and exercises with an ally. Plus I always wanted and hoped to get stationed there. I had a buddy stationed at Landstuhl and she loved it there. She spent every long weekend traveling around Europe, I got sent to a boring CONUS base in the middle of nowhere. I was so jealous.

[endersblade]

It is about time, they are not needed here.

I'm assuming you're talking about the tanks. But in reference to the soldiers, do you not realize that in the decades those bases have been occupied, the surrounding areas came to rely on the free-flowing income of the US Soldiers stationed there? When we pull out completely, the economy of the surrounding areas is going to just collapse, as their main source of income is now gone.

And while your opinion is just one of millions, do you fail to see that not everybody hates everybody else? I spent a brief time in Stuttgart, and I enjoyed the hell out of it. The German people were friendly as hell, I can't tell you how many nights I spent at local bars getting sloshed with, you guessed it, locals. Most soldiers don't give two shits about the 'major picture', and tend to just focus on their immediate lives. I'm not saying every Soldier and every German there liked each other, but as just as a pair of shoes there on the ground, I was really sad when I had to leave.

While a country may see foreign-occupied bases on their soils as invasion of sorts, you have to think about the positives that also come with it. How better for a country to sympathize with your situation than for them to spend time there? Our foreign bases give our troops a chance to experience those countries, their cultures. Are you tired of closed-minded Americans? Then be sad that these bases are closing down, because future soldiers won't get the chance to experience your country for their own, and will instead form opinions on you based on what they hear from other people.