GC, ToC was awesome! Where are you getting this data?

[Baelic]

I actually really liked the idea of a large coliseum-like raid instance where you just went from bout-to-bout with no trash whatsoever.

My favourite was definitely the Twin Val'Kyr, I'd laugh everytime I'd beat healers in the healing meters on my Shadow Priest :P

Now... excuse me as I go drown with depression as I recall the glory days of Shadow Priest Utility....

[Airwaves]

I didn't mind toc. Only because the fact I only had to raid 1 night a week.

[Deleted]

Toc Was Abysmal, it was rushed content and served not other purpose than
"oh shit Ulduar been out for way too long, and ICC is not finished yet, Let give them some dailies, a quick story line and a dungeon / Raid"
and this can be seen in several ways.
1 - the use of a combined Dungeon / raid for a zone. This had not been done before, or since.
2 - the design of the tier gear, all the cloth sets looked the same, so did the leather, and the plate.
3 - the lack of trash, sure some people liked a raid with no trash, but it still needs to be developed and it adds time to the raid, as well as a source of gear / patterns.

That is just off the top of my head without going on a research of it. TOC was shit, probably one of the lowest raiding / dunegon points in the entire game.
if TOC was a beer then it would be one of the 39p a can own brand stuff that not even the homeless would drink.

[LilSaihah]

Toc Was Abysmal, it was rushed content and served not other purpose than
"oh shit Ulduar been out for way too long, and ICC is not finished yet, Let give them some dailies, a quick story line and a dungeon / Raid"
and this can be seen in several ways.

Blizzard (I think GC) actually said, and I don't think it was too long ago, that ToC actually came out too quickly and pushed Ulduar under the rug before it had its lifespan.

[Mawnix]

Blizzard (I think GC) actually said, and I don't think it was too long ago, that ToC actually came out too quickly and pushed Ulduar under the rug before it had its lifespan.

They did say that, and it was completely true.

[Gandrake]

the only thing wrong with toc was that you could clear it in twenty minutes

it was not inherently terrible

But yes, a raid that many players of varying levels of competence from borderline retarded to competitive heroic raiders can clear before using up a good chunk of their raid schedule makes for bad design.

The tier was also very so-so on many classes

[Magpai]

Loved it and learned to raid in it. I could see how it would be way too short for a tier for most people though.

[Bluesftw]

sorry but raiding ToC / ToGC after Ulduar felt like slap in the face. Arena with couple of bosses, no trash , and gating on top of that...

[Keoren]

The concept itself was fun and the encounters in TotGC were not bad apart from Jaraxxus (greatly undertuned), but the environment was uninspiring. I was expecting more when I heard that the raid was going to be a coliseum. To me it lacked the oomph. I also don't think that the attempt limit made up for the low amount of reasonably easy bosses, even taking into consideration that it was about testing the waters.

6) Anub'arak. Not the fight itself, mind you, but everything else surrounding the fact that the fight was there. The Lich King coming in only reminded us how cheap his appearances were all expansion (to the point of cartoonish). The fact that Anub'arak was still alive reminded us of his cheap "demise" in a boring 5 man. Dropping down brought up painful reminders of the rumors of an entire Azjol-Nerub daily zone instead of the lame Tournament, and how arguably the most important part of Northrend itself was simply ignored in the expansion. Anub'arak being there in the circumstances that he was served as a painful reminder of how botched the patch cycle in WotLK was rather than an epic boss.

These are worthy points and I agree with all of them. It's a shame that the plans they had for Azjol-Nerub never became reality. I was hoping to see a raid tied to the place.

[Otimus]

I loved the Faction Champions fight a whole hell of a lot, but other than that, I could take it or leave it.

That kind of raid was the kind of thing that should not be it's own thing. It should of been a side-raid along with a much larger raid. It's just too small and simple.. and cheap looking.

[Hedleyazg]

Only thing ToC had going for it was the faction champs fight. Other than that it was complete dog shit.

[Trassk]

considering how it was the third tier in wraths expansion in a list of four, I think toc did just fine as the instance before the big one. It was short, sweet and allowed people to gear up without hassle for when icc did arrive.

[Airwaves]

considering how it was the third tier in wraths expansion in a list of four, I think toc did just fine as the instance before the big one. It was short, sweet and allowed people to gear up without hassle for when icc did arrive.

Which ICC was the most important lore raid ever in wow and will be. No where is warcraft lore ever again will be have 10 years of lore to go fight.

[Sliske]

"Not one, but TWO jormunger worms" sums up TOC nicely. To say it was half assed would be a compliment. Try one fifth-assed or one tenth-assed.

[Wilian]

The issue of ToC wasn't that it was a bad raid or bad content. It's issue was that it was only content for over half a year. It should've been either launched in a manner that doing both Ulduar and it was the main idea or had another raid instance to go with it.

[Phasma]

He gets his data from the vocal minority which is why all the systems in the game are messed up at the moment. If Blizzard were to go back to their old attitude about creating systems for the game (that is: not listening to the complaints of the community and doing what they think is fun/fair while taking in suggestions from the community that support their idea of what is fun/fair), the game would be better than it is right now. But, they have lost their creative sense (or the new people on the team have no creative sense), so I guess we are stuck with lame systems that the community had too much influence to "help" create. (e.g. How valor works was purely influenced by community complaints. How PvP gear works was purely influenced by community complaints. Everything they do now is influenced by community complaints. It's a terrible trend.)

ToC was fun for me. It was made during a period of time where Blizzard actually created content a certain way regardless of what criticism it took from the forum trolls.

[Ihnasir]

I hated it. It was so small, and it split my guild up at the time. I always dread going back there but I may try soloing on my DK sometime. I think another reason people didn't like it was because it was filler to give more time for ICC. (The design of the raid shows this). We could've had Azjol'Nerub - The Lower City, or a Drakkari troll raid. The tier was awful looking, with simple recolors to differentiate classes. Some of the weapons were cool, but not cool enough to me.

[Xucuroz]

Some of the fights were alright, but on the whole didn't enjoy the raid that much. I really hated faction Champions with a passion.

[zimzum2523]

I thought ToC was fine, Not great not bad. It was straight to the point no filler or time sinks. The gear was really ugly, but the weapons were awesome. I think the only reasons it got a bad rep was because people ran it to much and got burnt out, or because it was inbetween 2 of the best raids ever. but somehow blizz thinks people did not like it because there was no trash. It is called trash for a reason...

[MoanaLisa]

If you're going to get angry over someone's honest opinion about something I suppose this thread should be giving you fits.

I thought GC's tweets about ToC were perfectly reasonable and in line with comments I've been reading for years. Interestingly, I think there are also some reasonable opinions in this thread that disagree with GC's.

People have opinions. You can't get angry about every time someone disagrees with you or you'll spend your entire life being angry and be dead by 35.

Personally, I thought the idea behind ToC was pretty cool and the fights were fine. But the whole aesthetic of the raid was off and looked a little rushed thereby making it a lesser effort. Clearly that might have something to do with the following raid tier which many feel is about as good as it gets.

Even Beethoven wrote greater and lesser symphonies. Not everything can be the 5th or the 9th. Even a good (not great) raid will tend to look like a lesser thing when sandwiched between Ulduar and ICC.