1. #1
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    When Exactly Is Observer Better Than Fel Imp/GoSac (Affliction)?

    Despite all your ideas about me because of my noobish thread title, I'm not new to theorycraft, I'm not new to simcraft, or any of the like. I swear I've never claimed to be top-notch but I'd like to think I'm not bottom barrel either. I'm going to try and keep this from being "another one of those threads /rolleyes" as much as I can.

    For the past couple weeks I've been trying to compare the following in different situations on test dummies and dungeons and LFR when I have the extra time to run one, but due to so many different variables that could affect the numbers I see that are already so close together, its really hard to take anything I see into any kind of consideration:

    GoSup Observer
    GoSup Fel Imp
    GoSac

    I get that on paper GoSup Observer deals the highest dps, but because pets don't scale well with stats GoSac eventually overtakes it at a certain ilvl threshold. That's fine, whatever. Aside from scaling, GoSac is said to deal higher dps when your MG uptime is really high (i.e.: on fights where you rarely if ever have to switch targets or do anything besides keep MG up). Thanks to KJC, movement has very little effect on you MG uptime as well.

    And I get the fine details in Simcraft that slip through the cracks such as Fel Imp being better than Observer for target switching and high movement fights because Observer loses alot of dps wandering around to each target you switch to.


    So that leaves us with this, a list of fights that either (a)have alot of target switching or (b)have extremely high MG uptime.

    1. Jinrohk - No target switching, huge MG uptime. Pets don't benefit from puddles. You might get more dps up time while dodging orbs with pet, but that's debatable. OVERALL: GoSac
    2. Horridon - Massive target switching, and movement. Pet helps knock back pink dinosaur. Low to Med MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp.
    3. Council - Target switching between spaced out targets, and movement. Low to Med MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp
    4. Tortos - Light Target switching between spaced out targets, massive movement. Moderate MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Observer or Fel Imp.
    5. Megaera - Light target switching, light movement. High MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac
    6. Ji-Kun - (adds) heavy target switching, heavy movement, very low MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp. (boss) low movement, extremely high MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.
    7. Durumu - Low to heavy movement, very high MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.
    8. Primordius - Low movement, heavy target switching. Very high MG uptime when dps matters. OVERALL: GoSup Imp or GoSac.
    9. Dark Animus - Pets cause glitches with adds, GoSac DEFAULT.
    10. Iron Qon - Heavy movement, very high MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac
    11. Twin Consorts - Moderate Movement, Moderate to High MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Observer or GoSac
    12. Lei Shen - Heavy Movement, high MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.

    GoSup Observer: 2 half points (both fights its viable in, according to my analysis, there's another viable solution for)
    GoSup Imp: 2 points and 3 half points
    GoSac: 6 points and 2 half points

    I'm sure there's something I'm not seeing here, but after alot of analysis I honestly can't figure out what the missing element is. Where is Observer's usefulness? Where exactly does its popularity come from, I really don't see a fight this tier its best suited for, anything without target switching is going to have high enough MG uptime to make GoSac more efficient. Please help me with my foolishness : )
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    1. Jinrohk - No target switching, huge MG uptime. Pets don't benefit from puddles. You might get more dps up time while dodging orbs with pet, but that's debatable. OVERALL: GoSac
    Pets do benefit from puddles (but guardians don't).
    www.youtube.com/Spygnesy
    Soloing as a warlock.

  3. #3
    You are heavily overestimating gosac. Single target (jinrokh) it's molecules better. Anywhere else, it's worse.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysen View Post
    Pets do benefit from puddles (but guardians don't).
    even if it does, its snapshotted from pet's location? Meaning you have to pray to rng gods and poor ai developers your pet doesn't walk up to the boss awkwardly (observer) or not even bother to enter pool at all (imp)?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 08:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    You are heavily overestimating gosac. Single target (jinrokh) it's molecules better. Anywhere else, it's worse.
    I assume I'm wrong, I'm looking for the logic behind why I'm wrong.

    if MG uptime is directly proportional to GoSac's efficiency, then where am I wrong? More bosses offer massive amounts of MG freecasting uptime than not, and the ones that don't are target switching fights that'd prefer imp.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2013-04-12 at 12:58 AM.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    even if it does, its snapshotted from pet's location? Meaning you have to pray to rng gods and poor ai developers your pet doesn't walk up to the boss awkwardly (observer) or not even bother to enter pool at all (imp)?
    Iirc when you get the Fluidity buff, you pet gets it too, wherever his location.
    www.youtube.com/Spygnesy
    Soloing as a warlock.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    1. Jinrohk - No target switching, huge MG uptime. Pets don't benefit from puddles. You might get more dps up time while dodging orbs with pet, but that's debatable. OVERALL: GoSac
    2. Horridon - Massive target switching, and movement. Pet helps knock back pink dinosaur. Low to Med MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp.
    3. Council - Target switching between spaced out targets, and movement. Low to Med MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp
    4. Tortos - Light Target switching between spaced out targets, massive movement. Moderate MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Observer or Fel Imp.
    5. Megaera - Light target switching, light movement. High MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac
    6. Ji-Kun - (adds) heavy target switching, heavy movement, very low MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Imp. (boss) low movement, extremely high MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.
    7. Durumu - Low to heavy movement, very high MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.
    8. Primordius - Low movement, heavy target switching. Very high MG uptime when dps matters. OVERALL: GoSup Imp or GoSac.
    9. Dark Animus - Pets cause glitches with adds, GoSac DEFAULT.
    10. Iron Qon - Heavy movement, very high MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSac
    11. Twin Consorts - Moderate Movement, Moderate to High MG Uptime. OVERALL: GoSup Observer or GoSac
    12. Lei Shen - Heavy Movement, high MG uptime. OVERALL: GoSac.
    1. Like others said, pets do gain benefit. As long as your tanks aren't hurr durr pet AI will move your pet into the puddle NP.
    2. GoSup Imp is definitely an option, but you could just have your pet on the boss and use a CoE macro to knock your add back for more DPS.
    3. Observer does just fine on this fight as well as Imp. Force your pet to attack the kill target and leave it be.
    4. Use GoSup and sit Observer on boss, GG.
    5. Again, GoSup is stronger here in my experience. You should be doing some AoE on the Arcane adds if you're doing it right.
    6. Honestly fights are the devil for this fight, just go GoSac all day long.
    7. Again, same thing as Megaera. Though you should really just be playing Demo or Destro for it.
    8. GoSup Observer and have it sit on the boss while you go to dot heaven.
    9. Pet glitches? I've not once had an issue with my pet. Either tanking the add or having it attack it, either way I wouldn't "default" to GoSac, GoSup is better.
    10. Either or for Iron Qon.
    11. GoSup Observer, sits on boss - you multidot.
    12. Should just respec Demo for this fight, don't even think about Aff.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post

    I assume I'm wrong, I'm looking for the logic behind why I'm wrong.

    if MG uptime is directly proportional to GoSac's efficiency, then where am I wrong? More bosses offer massive amounts of MG freecasting uptime than not, and the ones that don't are target switching fights that'd prefer imp.
    You can't look at GoSac and think: "Hey, high up-time on MG = It's better". You have to take into account what it actually provides. If GoSac provided a 1% dmg increase instead of 25%, would it still be optimal accourding to you? (Extreme case, but it serves to prove my point).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    even if it does, its snapshotted from pet's location? Meaning you have to pray to rng gods and poor ai developers your pet doesn't walk up to the boss awkwardly (observer) or not even bother to enter pool at all (imp)?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 08:57 PM ----------



    I assume I'm wrong, I'm looking for the logic behind why I'm wrong.

    if MG uptime is directly proportional to GoSac's efficiency, then where am I wrong? More bosses offer massive amounts of MG freecasting uptime than not, and the ones that don't are target switching fights that'd prefer imp.
    Not sure what you're talking about here. As far as I know, the pet gets the buff regardless of where it is. If you have the buff = it has the buff, it doesn't even need to touch the pool. If that's not the case and you need to physically move the pet into the pool, then boy have I been losing out on some deeps...

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staffreak View Post
    You can't look at GoSac and think: "Hey, high up-time on MG = It's better". You have to take into account what it actually provides. If GoSac provided a 1% dmg increase instead of 25%, would it still be optimal accourding to you? (Extreme case, but it serves to prove my point).
    My statement was based up the premise that with GoSac's current 5.2 value, it was better DPS than GoSup after a certain MG uptime threshold. My post was stating that it seems pressing that most of the ToT fights offer enough uptime to cross that threshold. I'm not claiming to know any hidden knowledge about the game, and accept that GoSup is the accepted standard, but was trying to see where and why I was wrong. Even those that use GoSup proposed the same MG-threshold theories.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    5. Again, GoSup is stronger here in my experience. You should be doing some AoE on the Arcane adds if you're doing it right.
    Megaera was one of the few fights I was able to do fairly effective side-by-side comparisons on during the first couple weeks of the patch. I was consistently doing about 8k better with Sac (ilvl 505 or something along those lines back then) than with Sup:Observer. Never tried imp, but I assume it'd be worse. I can try and find logs if WoL still has them from that long ago.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Megaera was one of the few fights I was able to do fairly effective side-by-side comparisons on during the first couple weeks of the patch. I was consistently doing about 8k better with Sac (ilvl 505 or something along those lines back then) than with Sup:Observer. Never tried imp, but I assume it'd be worse. I can try and find logs if WoL still has them from that long ago.
    On Normal that may be true - on Heroic it definitely is not.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    My statement was based up the premise that with GoSac's current 5.2 value, it was better DPS than GoSup after a certain MG uptime threshold. My post was stating that it seems pressing that most of the ToT fights offer enough uptime to cross that threshold. I'm not claiming to know any hidden knowledge about the game, and accept that GoSup is the accepted standard, but was trying to see where and why I was wrong.
    Your logic is sound, but your numbers are clearly not. Not sure what you're threshold is but observer will do more damage than the gain from sacrifice in every fight other than maybe jinrokh or buggy fights like jikun.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    10. Either or for Iron Qon.
    Heavy multidotting fight on heroic, supremacy for sure.

  12. #12
    Eh. I wouldn't say it's heavy multidotting. You're dotting the boss during dog transitions and killing all four dogs in 45s during the last phase. You can honestly o either way for that fight.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  13. #13
    I was about to make a thread like this. Thank Jesus you did the leg work for me.

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