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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Huh, crazy. Do you think that this kind of thing should happen?
    He did it when Firelands was out so atramedes had been nerfed some already (still same xpac though).
    Fight took him ~42 minutes. If someone can concentrate that long and not mess up then yeah I have no problem with it.
    It had more to do with how the boss worked and pets with hunter mechanics.

  2. #1242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Again, only 25% of people could complete T14.

    Yes, we get it, its not hard for you, but the thing YOU dont understand, is that you belong to the top 25% skilled people in the world in this game in PVE aspects.

    What we are saying is, Normals should be tuned for more than just the top 25%.

    You are part of the elite, you belong to heroics, not normals.
    Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

    As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

    Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

    As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

    Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!
    ^^^^ Bravo!

  4. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post

    What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

    Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.
    Really? How many times do I have to scream this before people get it. If you dodged shit on atramedes YOU DIDN'T TAKE FUCKING DAMAGE FROM THAT SHIT. If you dodge shit on megara YOU STILL TAKE FUCKING DMG FROM MEGARA. I don't know, it's like do you people even read?

    H bethilac had all kinds of heroic dmg. Wasn't boring
    H baelroc was challenging for healers BUT DIDN'T RELY ON PUNISHING YOU EVEN IF YOU MOVE OUT OF SHIT.

    The point is that being a healer is already a pretty stressful and busy job. HAVING TO "BE ON THE FUCKING BALL" ALL THE TIME JUST MAKES THIS WORSE. I was fine healing normals and even heroics because I could stop at some point and wasn't constantly running around trying to catch up because the raid still took dmg and i was to busy fucking dodging flaming balls of bullshit. I was still busy enough to be challenged and not bored but I wasn't OVERWHELMED.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 05:41 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Really? How many times do I have to scream this before people get it. If you dodged shit on atramedes YOU DIDN'T TAKE FUCKING DAMAGE FROM THAT SHIT. If you dodge shit on megara YOU STILL TAKE FUCKING DMG FROM MEGARA. I don't know, it's like do you people even read?

    H bethilac had all kinds of heroic dmg. Wasn't boring
    H baelroc was challenging for healers BUT DIDN'T RELY ON PUNISHING YOU EVEN IF YOU MOVE OUT OF SHIT.

    The point is that being a healer is already a pretty stressful and busy job. HAVING TO "BE ON THE FUCKING BALL" ALL THE TIME JUST MAKES THIS WORSE. I was fine healing normals and even heroics because I could stop at some point and wasn't constantly running around trying to catch up because the raid still took dmg and i was to busy fucking dodging flaming balls of bullshit.
    I'm not ignoring that you still take some (small) amount of damage. I'm saying its not an issue. And the only thing you take damage from regardless is the poison thing, and its not really a don't stand in it, its a move as far from it as you can, its meant to do raid wide damage, how much is up to you.

  6. #1246
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I'm not ignoring that you still take some (small) amount of damage. I'm saying its not an issue. And the only thing you take damage from regardless is the poison thing, and its not really a don't stand in it, its a move as far from it as you can, its meant to do raid wide damage, how much is up to you.
    It's not small and when it hits with other shit it's usually a wipe. I.e cinders and green shit. Or on tortos rockfall and quake and turtle shell. It isn't fucking small and the bigger loss is the opportunity cost I lose cause i have to dodge shit that still fucking hits me anyway. It being meant to do raid wide dmg is fine, just don't also ask me to move from it as well because then I'm constantly behind.

    I;m doing these fights on normal and we downed meg last week. Last pull of the night. Half the raid wiped. Screen shot at the end. You'd think we'd downed the last boss in the heroic tier or something. It's fucking horseshit and calling it the appropriate tuning is ignorant in the extreme.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1247
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's not small and when it hits with other shit it's usually a wipe. I.e cinders and green shit. Or on tortos rockfall and quake and turtle shell. It isn't fucking small and the bigger loss is the opportunity cost I lose cause i have to dodge shit that still fucking hits me anyway. It being meant to do raid wide dmg is fine, just don't also ask me to move from it as well because then I'm constantly behind.

    I;m doing these fights on normal and we downed meg last week. Last pull of the night. Half the raid wiped. Screen shot at the end. You'd think we'd downed the last boss in the heroic tier or something. It's fucking horseshit and calling it the appropriate tuning is ignorant in the extreme.
    It may still hit you, but it hits you for alot less than it would if you were standing right in the middle of it. And there are ways to mitigate it. For tortos when we have bats come during a quake we have the healers group on the bat tank and our DK pops a AMS so that we don't really have to worry about rockfalls right there while the bats are getting under control.

  8. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    It may still hit you, but it hits you for alot less than it would if you were standing right in the middle of it. And there are ways to mitigate it. For tortos when we have bats come during a quake we have the healers group on the bat tank and our DK pops a AMS so that we don't really have to worry about rockfalls right there while the bats are getting under control.
    No it KILLS you if your standing in the middle of it so you have to move. However if you as a healer move your not healing (especially when you need to hardcast) so you have the choice of die or take dmg. In the past the choice was die or negate dmg, an obvious winner. Well obviously dying in the first example isn't a real choice either BUT TAKING DMG EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE OUT OF SOMETHING IS A HEROIC MECHANIC and should be relegated to exactly that.

    I don't need a fucking lecture on how to kill the boss we did it already. The point is that it felt far more like a heroic fight than it did a normal one and that's one of the reasons why. The tuning is just way off. The list of fucking horse shit mechancis and rng you have to deal with is a mile wide.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it KILLS you if your standing in the middle of it so you have to move. However if you as a healer move your not healing (especially when you need to hardcast) so you have the choice of die or take dmg. In the past the choice was die or negate dmg, an obvious winner. Well obviously dying in the first example isn't a real choice either BUT TAKING DMG EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE OUT OF SOMETHING IS A HEROIC MECHANIC and should be relegated to exactly that.

    I don't need a fucking lecture on how to kill the boss we did it already. The point is that it felt far more like a heroic fight than it did a normal one and that's one of the reasons why. The tuning is just way off. The list of fucking horse shit mechancis and rng you have to deal with is a mile wide.
    I wasn't trying to give you a lecture, just pointing out an example of how we negate a complexity with group utility. I think that is what Blizzard is going for. Make groups take more advantage of their players utility. If you can just move and take no damage, no one (or a select few) are required to use their utility spells. Make it messier and everyone has to participate in solutions to solve the issues. I think thats a good thing, everyone contributing to the success not only in DPS or heals, but in utility that helps your group overcome mechanics.

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I wasn't trying to give you lessons, just pointing out an example of how we negate a complexity with group utility. I think that is what Blizzard is going for. Make groups take more advantage of their players utility. If you can just move and take no damage, no one (or a select few) are required to use their utility spells. Make it messier and everyone has to participate in solutions to solve the issues. I think thats a good thing, everyone contributing to the success not only in DPS or heals, but in utility that helps your group overcome mechanics.
    That doesn't negate anything. AMS gets you one crack at the fucking can. ASsuming you have a death knight (bring the player not the class) the point remains I STILL TAKE DMG EVEN WHEN I MOVE OUT OF SHIT. I used my utility spells all the time in previous tiers. Are you fucking Kidding me? I've got hand of sac macros out my asshole just as a tank cooldowns. Boping fools left rght and center to keep them alive. I KNOW HOW TO FUCKING PLAY MY PALADIN AND USE UTILITY. I don't need to be god damn fucking lecture by you or the developers under this stupid fucking hardcore knows best mentality. A mentality where we sit our friends because well guess what they aint hardcore no more. I think it's HORSE SHIT that normal raids are this poorly tuned and this off the fucking wall in terms of difficulty. It stops being normal and is now just hard.

    Once again I will say it even though it fall on deaf ignorant ears. ON NORMAL MODES if you move out of something you shouldn't take ANY FUCKING DMG from that thing. If you don't move out of it yes you should die. On heroic modes you can keep the current fucking normal way of constant dmg even when you move from shit. That's ONE SIMPLE GOD DAMN FIX that makes normals ACTUALLY NORMAL.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 06:03 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Again, only 25% of people could complete T14.

    Yes, we get it, its not hard for you, but the thing YOU dont understand, is that you belong to the top 25% skilled people in the world in this game in PVE aspects.

    What we are saying is, Normals should be tuned for more than just the top 25%.

    You are part of the elite, you belong to heroics, not normals.
    I'd like to know the numbers of people who killed Ragnaros when they killed the first boss
    Not many people have seen Nefarian either
    I guess the smallest percentage of people have seen C'Thun and I'm not even gonna talk about 95% of people missing an entire raid (naxxramas)

    BC :
    I guess a decent amount how people have seen the last boss of Karazhan but I wouldnt bet on it
    Clearly almost nobody have seen Vashj/Kael'Thas
    Same for archimonde, maybe they seen it but clearly didnt kill him
    Same goes for illidan.
    Sunwell is kind of the same as Naxxramas, almost nobody killed more than 2/3 boss there.

    Wrath :
    Naxxramas was decent I think
    Ulduar despite what you may think i'm not sure a lot of people killed Yogg
    ICC I have no idea.

    Cata :
    It's clear there's a very small percentage of people who seen let alone killed Nefarian
    Cho'gall numbers I think were descent, maybe i'm wrong.
    Small percentage of people killed Ragnaros too, we barely did and some bosses in Firelands were pretty hard.
    DS wasnt there but it seems this instance difficulty level was complete crap.

    There's history of people missing entire raids, and a lot of final bosses since the beggining of this game, this isn't news.
    While you may think people should've been able to see T14 finals bosses sooner, you can't say this is a new thing.

    So, if some people think blizzard should change something to make it happen in the future, I could understand this wish.
    But saying the content is a lot harder now than before and that's why people couldn't see the end bosses before a new patchs came out, can't agree.

    I might be wrong, but to me this is news at all, we missed entire raids sometimes, i'm not going to cry over no seeing the end boss of a raid 2 weeks after the new one got out.
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  12. #1252
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That doesn't negate anything. AMS gets you one crack at the fucking can. ASsuming you have a death knight (bring the player not the class) the point remains I STILL TAKE DMG EVEN WHEN I MOVE OUT OF SHIT. I used my utility spells all the time in previous tiers. Are you fucking Kidding me? I've got hand of sac macros out my asshole just as a tank cooldowns. Boping fools left rght and center to keep them alive. I KNOW HOW TO FUCKING PLAY MY PALADIN AND USE UTILITY. I don't need to be god damn fucking lecture by you or the developers under this stupid fucking hardcore knows best mentality. A mentality where we sit our friends because well guess what they aint hardcore no more. I think it's HORSE SHIT that normal raids are this poorly tuned and this off the fucking wall in terms of dmg. It stops being normal and is now just hard.
    I didn't say you didn't use your utility, and I didn't say that you always need a death knight. Just trying to give examples that are relevant to my group. I'm saying the whole group has to use utility not just for themselves, but for the group (depending on the fight, etc.), not just the healers and tanks or one great dps. Everyone contributes. I think people that are tanks and healers are used to using the full breadth of their abilities, but DPS not so much. In the past, like you say, all dps had to do was DPS and move out of shit. That's all they had to think about. Now for the group to be successful they have to use the completeness of their character and not just DPS and don't die.

    Also, just a game, breathe. Don't want you to have a coronary.

  13. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it KILLS you if your standing in the middle of it so you have to move. However if you as a healer move your not healing (especially when you need to hardcast) so you have the choice of die or take dmg. In the past the choice was die or negate dmg, an obvious winner. Well obviously dying in the first example isn't a real choice either BUT TAKING DMG EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE OUT OF SOMETHING IS A HEROIC MECHANIC and should be relegated to exactly that.

    I don't need a fucking lecture on how to kill the boss we did it already. The point is that it felt far more like a heroic fight than it did a normal one and that's one of the reasons why. The tuning is just way off. The list of fucking horse shit mechancis and rng you have to deal with is a mile wide.
    I'm generally agreeing with your points but please for the love of God stop flogging a dead horse. You have 5 holy power you can bank for when shit is about to land (green cloud and rockfall etcetc), plan ahead. Yes, gee its hard. We get that.

  14. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I didn't say you didn't use your utility, and I didn't say that you always need a death knight. Just trying to give examples that are relevant to my group. I'm saying the whole group has to use utility not just for themselves, but for the group (depending on the fight, etc.), not just the healers and tanks or one great dps. Everyone contributes. I think people that are tanks and healers are used to using the full breadth of their abilities, but DPS not so much. In the past, like you say, all dps had to do was DPS and move out of shit. That's all they had to think about. Now for the group to be successful they have to use the completeness of their character and not just DPS and don't die.

    Also, just a game, breathe. Don't want you to have a coronary.
    In other words THEY HAVE TO PLAY LIKE HARDCORE FUCKING RAIDERS. Because in addition to worrying about min maxing their dps (with this tiers RIDICULOUS FUCKING DPS CHECKS ON NORMALS) they also have to min max utility and cooldown usage FOR FUCKING NORMAL RAIDS. They apparently also now have to class stack out the asshole and bring the player not the class went out the fucking window. Most of the people in my raid have done heroics in the past before so they know exactly how to do that and how to coordinate that. But don't fucking sit their and tell me normals are normal this tier when they clearly aren't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 06:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I'm generally agreeing with your points but please for the love of God stop flogging a dead horse. You have 5 holy power you can bank for when shit is about to land (green cloud and rockfall etcetc), plan ahead. Yes, gee its hard. We get that.
    On the last two heads that becomes nigh impossible as the constant amount of fucking green shit on the ground doesn't even let me build up holy power that fast. That only really only buys me a WoG anyway. LoD is piss poor in 10 man and I rarely have enough people stacjed up enough to use it. Well except for rampage.Again I know how to play my fucking holy paladin. I don't need lectures from you or anyone else on this forum telling me what to do. I raided normals and heroics since Vanilla. I'm not new at this.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 06:18 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    . It's fucking horseshit and calling it the appropriate tuning is ignorant in the extreme.

    9 maned 1 shot it .. look at our gear we do not outgear it it was a progress kill for us last week! To say it's overtuned is just being silly! Perhaps your just doing a kill order that makes it much harder for your team? Do you have WOL for it?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=6499&e=7011

    Perhaps your just running a shitty strat or your kill order is crap for your comp? Execution / strat = a huge part of this fight and if your simply copy pasting another teams strat you could be making it way harder on yourself... see our night of non stop wipes when we tried to go g>r>g>r>g>r and then 9 man one shottin git this week when we tossed in 1 B head kill to the rotation.

    Not studying and comming prepared to the raid is not the same as overtuning! Overtuning = there is only one strat cant change anythign we are doing we are executing to the best we can but we get screwed over no matter what!

  16. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    9 maned 1 shot it .. look at our gear we do not outgear it it was a progress kill for us last week! To say it's overtuned is just being silly! Perhaps your just doing a kill order that makes it much harder for your team? Do you have WOL for it?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=6499&e=7011

    Perhaps your just running a shitty strat or your kill order is crap for your comp? Execution / strat = a huge part of this fight and if your simply copy pasting another teams strat you could be making it way harder on yourself... see our night of non stop wipes when we tried to go g>r>g>r>g>r and then 9 man one shottin git this week when we tossed in 1 B head kill to the rotation.

    Not studying and comming prepared to the raid is not the same as overtuning! Overtuning = there is only one strat cant change anythign we are doing we are executing to the best we can but we get screwed over no matter what!
    You must be fucking kidding me? I posted the WoL earlier in the thread. We killed it this week. IT'S NOT FUCKING EASY don't you get it? We did EVERYTHING YOU FUCKING LISTED and we only killed him at the last pull of the night, with half the raid fucking dead. We studied. WE came prepared. The fight is just overtuned. I'm raiding with players who have raided normals and heroics for YEARS, who raided in tbc and we've got TWO DEATH'S DEMISE PLAYERS IN OUR RAID (realm first defeats of yogg saron) and were all pretty much in agreement THAT THESE FIGHTS ARE FUCKING OVERTUNED FOR NORMAL. When we killed Meg you'd think we'd down a heroic boss or something. The relief was palpable.

    Not calling them overtuned is silly. It ignores the statistics and the reality of these bosses. But what's the fucking point? Arguing with you people is like arguing with creationists. You present evidence. They plug their ears. You scream and holler at them. They plug their ears. The universe could collapse around you and you would say nope not happening raid tiers are tuned fine. I'd rather be arguing evolution to christians than dealing with this.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 06:24 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In other words THEY HAVE TO PLAY LIKE HARDCORE FUCKING RAIDERS. Because in addition to worrying about min maxing their dps (with this tiers RIDICULOUS FUCKING DPS CHECKS ON NORMALS) they also have to min max utility and cooldown usage FOR FUCKING NORMAL RAIDS. They apparently also now have to class stack out the asshole and bring the player not the class went out the fucking window. Most of the people in my raid have done heroics in the past before so they know exactly how to do that and how to coordinate that. But don't fucking sit their and tell me normals are normal this tier when they clearly aren't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 06:11 PM ----------



    On the last two heads that becomes nigh impossible as the constant amount of fucking green shit on the ground doesn't even let me build up holy power that fast. That only really only buys me a WoG anyway. LoD is piss poor in 10 man and I rarely have enough people stacjed up enough to use it. Well except for rampage.Again I know how to play my fucking holy paladin. I don't need lectures from you or anyone else on this forum telling me what to do. I raided normals and heroics since Vanilla. I'm not new at this.
    Everyone knows the green shit hurts a lot and it is the worst head to kill, now if you understood the mechanics what you would do is only kill the green head on the 2nd to last phase and then pop lust and burn the last head, this way you will basically faceroll through the last head which will be the only one with poison bombs to fast for you to even notice it, and even if you do someone usually survives and the boss dies. This way you can have your "if you move from stuff you dont take dmg" way of doing it + its way easier
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  18. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You must be fucking kidding me? I posted the WoL earlier in the thread. We killed it this week. IT'S NOT FUCKING EASY don't you get it? We did EVERYTHING YOU FUCKING LISTED and we only killed him at the last pull of the night, with half the raid fucking dead. We studied. WE came prepared. The fight is just overtuned. I'm raiding with players who have raided normals and heroics for YEARS, who raided in tbc and we've got TWO DEATH'S DEMISE PLAYERS IN OUR RAID (realm first defeats of yogg saron) and were all pretty much in agreement THAT THESE FIGHTS ARE FUCKING OVERTUNED FOR NORMAL. When we killed Meg you'd think we'd down a heroic boss or something. The relief was palpable.

    Not calling them overtuned is silly. It ignores the statistics and the reality of these bosses. But what's the fucking point? Arguing with you people is like arguing with creationists. You present evidence. They plug their ears. You scream and holler at them. They plug their ears. The universe could collapse around you and you would say nope not happening raid tiers are tuned fine. I'd rather be arguing evolution to christians than dealing with this.
    Don't know what to tell ya. My raid is made up of people that have never really done any amount of heroics, and we don't seem to have too much problem. Sorry.

  19. #1259
    Yeah I get that, just trying to tell you nicely that you are starting to sound like the madman on a soapbox screaming so hard that the spittle is flying.

    By the way:

    Light of dawn
    Instant cast
    Requires Paladin (Holy)
    Requires level 70

    Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to emanate a wave of healing energy, healing up to 6 of the most injured targets in your party or raid within 30 yards for 829 to 923 (+ 15.2% of SpellPower) per charge of Holy Power.


    *You don't use a spell because people aren't stacked yet it's fully effective to 30 yards*
    Don't bother telling me you know how to play the "fucking paladin" and then come up with a blatently stupid statement like that. I just took a quick look at WOL and the top 10 man parses are rife with holy palas. Care to know what one of their biggest heals were? Yeah thats right.

    Anyway, this isn't about you knowing your class or not, its more about you taking some deep breaths and stepping away from the soapbox.

  20. #1260
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    I would like to see more nerfs to make the game fun again.

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