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  1. #1281
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I keep saying it and I'll keep saying it. The guild I raided with and myself have all raided heroics in the past. We've got server first yogg saron players in that guild. We've got experienced raiders. WE've got good raids dps and good execution. We WILL TRIVIALIZE Megara with more gear but that isn't really the point. All the wealth of experience this raid guild has and were all virtually in agreement that so far every fight this tier has felt like downing a heroic boss. This is all on NORMAL DIFFICULTY. Now theirs disagreement about wether that's a good thing or not but nobody questions that this tier is off the fucking wall for normal difficulty. We think we'll get lei shin under the wire but it'll be close depending on how soon 5.3 comes out. When 5.3 comes out we'll probably destroy everything. Gear upgrades will break most fights.
    You keep saying this and I believe you. All I know is my group are not experienced heroic raiders by any means, just people who are lucky to get through normals on most tiers, and we are 11/12 atm. So....

  2. #1282
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen any Normal Mode Durumu is overtuned threads yet. Getting my popcorn ready for that one.
    People aren't on durumu yet, they're on tortos, pretty soon mega, they'll be on durumu in a month, you have time to stock up buckets :P.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I keep saying it and I'll keep saying it. The guild I raided with and myself have all raided heroics in the past. We've got server first yogg saron players in that guild. We've got experienced raiders. WE've got good raids dps and good execution. We WILL TRIVIALIZE Megara with more gear but that isn't really the point. All the wealth of experience this raid guild has and were all virtually in agreement that so far every fight this tier has felt like downing a heroic boss. This is all on NORMAL DIFFICULTY. Now theirs disagreement about wether that's a good thing or not but nobody questions that this tier is off the fucking wall for normal difficulty. We think we'll get lei shin under the wire but it'll be close depending on how soon 5.3 comes out. When 5.3 comes out we'll probably destroy everything. Gear upgrades will break most fights.
    I'm sure you will trivialize the fight with more gear and my point is not to say you bad players! My point is that you can trivialize that fight right now with the gear you have with the CORRECT STRAT! Our guild has the same gear as yours, we raid only 1 day a week and we thought mageara was a brick wall night one and people were demoralized when we kept getting to the last head and getting WTF raped by green shit all over. Came back next week change ONE head color in the rotation and BAM we pull we killed it and then we pull out a 9 man kill of it this week!


    I will be the first to admit... if you go in with a 25 man strat, or a 10 man comp strat that does not compliment your raid the boss will feel like a heroic overtuned boss! You wont hear me argue that ever...but if your not willing to rethink your strat and look at it from a different POV then why should blizz nerf it for you when others like myself are steam rolling it as is with a correct strat for our team? I would seriously sugest that you try doing it the GRGRBGR way the next lockout you will see that one blue head changes everythign for healers at the end and is why we changed it up!

    None of the fights have felt close to as hard as yogg 0 was. That was a true F you overtuned heroic that kicked your ass if one person fucked up and there was only one strat for that and thats the reason I will always rock the deaths demise title!

  4. #1284
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    This tier is not overtuned but the focus and design was on MECHANICS not brute forcing like many encounters in the past. When the raid was released there was a watercooler from the devs explaining they wanted mechanical checks and for a group like yours this will probably cause more issues than you ever saw in the past! Its not that its overtuned it's just tuned differently than a dps check! I gave links to our raiders and logs because we are very equaly geared when comparing our raid teams. We had allot of issue with Garalon DPS check and elegon dps check and I'm sure that probably was not an issue for your group at all... however our strengh thus far is execution and as such this tier we have been having allot of sucess due to the focus on mechanic > brute force dps!
    Thats exactly the problem. The fights aren't overtuned really at all. It is just that a lot of normal mode players are not use to an early boss in the tier being as mechanically intricate as an end boss like Empress. Then rather learn to adjust to mechanics, they want to brute force them like they see heroic guilds doing (or want hp nerfs like council and horridon are getting) so they never really have to learn how to deal with the mechanics.

    Like Mag... that is really, really easy. But if you go and kill green every other head, yeah you're gonna take a crap ton of damage. For some guilds, that was trivial which made the annoyance of having some one kite the blue beam not worth it (incidentally that only really works on 10m because the damage for the poison bomb is over adjusted but whatever). Doing red and green only is essentially your raid trying to ignore 2 mechanics: the blue beam as you get none, but also the green as you are adopting a 'whatever, we will just heal through it' plan. Don't be shocked when ignoring multiple mechanics doesn't net your guild a new kill in a short span of time.

  5. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I'm sure you will trivialize the fight with more gear and my point is not to say you bad players! My point is that you can trivialize that fight right now with the gear you have with the CORRECT STRAT! Our guild has the same gear as yours, we raid only 1 day a week and we thought mageara was a brick wall night one and people were demoralized when we kept getting to the last head and getting WTF raped by green shit all over. Came back next week change ONE head color in the rotation and BAM we pull we killed it and then we pull out a 9 man kill of it this week!


    I will be the first to admit... if you go in with a 25 man strat, or a 10 man comp strat that does not compliment your raid the boss will feel like a heroic overtuned boss! You wont hear me argue that ever...but if your not willing to rethink your strat and look at it from a different POV then why should blizz nerf it for you when others like myself are steam rolling it as is with a correct strat for our team? I would seriously sugest that you try doing it the GRGRBGR way the next lockout you will see that one blue head changes everythign for healers at the end and is why we changed it up!

    None of the fights have felt close to as hard as yogg 0 was. That was a true F you overtuned heroic that kicked your ass if one person fucked up and there was only one strat for that and thats the reason I will always rock the deaths demise title!
    We tried killing the blues. it sucks. THe dps spend more time running from the heads then they actually do killing the bosses and we spend more time healing and we eventually run oom anyway. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. All the strats that kill the blue heads complicate this fight enourmesly by adding another layer of difficulty and further mechanics to over come. RGRGRGRGRG worked for us and it's only because of a fucking massive gear check that this fight wasn't even easier to down. So yes these fights are massive gear checks and they all assume your raid has downed the previous tier in Blizzards futile and vein attempt to bring back tiered raiding.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1286
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    When 5.3 comes out we'll probably destroy everything. Gear upgrades will break most fights.
    So what is the problem exactly? The tier has to last people beyond 5.3... Obviously it would be really dumb to tune the tier so that the vast majority is done with their content (meaning normal mode guilds are all done with normal and heroic mode guilds are all done with heroic) before 5.3 and then have them wait months for 5.4 with nothing to do.

    The fights are fine. You get extra gear initially from vp and maybe lfr and then with 5.3 you get vp upgrades. These will gradually help your raid out and is why there doesn't really need to be sweeping nerfs of anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    We tried killing the blues. it sucks. THe dps spend more time running from the heads then they actually do killing the bosses and we spend more time healing and we eventually run oom anyway. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. All the strats that kill the blue heads complicate this fight enourmesly by adding another layer of difficulty and further mechanics to over come. RGRGRGRGRG worked for us and it's only because of a fucking massive gear check that this fight wasn't even easier to down. So yes these fights are massive gear checks and they all assume your raid has downed the previous tier in Blizzards futile and vein attempt to bring back tiered raiding.
    Uh yeah... when you purposely choose to ignore mechanics, the fight will end up placing far more emphasis on the "gear check." You're doing that to yourselves... don't come whining here about overtuned fights when you purposely do it in a way that requires more gear.

  7. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So what is the problem exactly? The tier has to last people beyond 5.3... Obviously it would be really dumb to tune the tier so that the vast majority is done with their content (meaning normal mode guilds are all done with normal and heroic mode guilds are all done with heroic) before 5.3 and then have them wait months for 5.4 with nothing to do.

    The fights are fine. You get extra gear initially from vp and maybe lfr and then with 5.3 you get vp upgrades. These will gradually help your raid out and is why there doesn't really need to be sweeping nerfs of anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:35 PM ----------



    Uh yeah... when you purposely choose to ignore mechanics, the fight will end up placing far more emphasis on the "gear check." You're doing that to yourselves... don't come whining here about overtuned fights when you purposely do it in a way that requires more gear.
    Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.

    The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1288
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So what is the problem exactly? The tier has to last people beyond 5.3... Obviously it would be really dumb to tune the tier so that the vast majority is done with their content (meaning normal mode guilds are all done with normal and heroic mode guilds are all done with heroic) before 5.3 and then have them wait months for 5.4 with nothing to do.

    The fights are fine. You get extra gear initially from vp and maybe lfr and then with 5.3 you get vp upgrades. These will gradually help your raid out and is why there doesn't really need to be sweeping nerfs of anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:35 PM ----------



    Uh yeah... when you purposely choose to ignore mechanics, the fight will end up placing far more emphasis on the "gear check." You're doing that to yourselves... don't come whining here about overtuned fights when you purposely do it in a way that requires more gear.
    The point is (and it keeps being ignored) is that plenty of normal mode raiders become overloaded once there are too many mechanics + their DPS/HPS to maintain.

    It's a lot to focus on, people do have a variance in their cognitive limits. One reason I believe that there is so much angst on this issue is because there doesnt seem any way to overgear and brute force the mechanics on the horizon, which (if you accept that the normal raiders are overloaded) means there is then no hope of clearing the raids unless the nerfs start to get very hefty.

    A simple example is garalon - blizzard recently extended the enrage by a huge amount. Was the enrage the problem though? I doubt it. The problem will have been the 146 item "to do" checklist which the RL will have had to go through + training everyone up to do the various jobs involved and then the raiders involved still having to execute them well because a 10% hp nerf and an enrage extension doesn't really help you a whole lot if two raiders live under the boss due to being overloaded.
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  9. #1289
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.

    The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.
    So if you have issues with normal mechanics is your head going to explode if you try heroic stuff?

  10. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The point is (and it keeps being ignored) is that plenty of normal mode raiders become overloaded once there are too many mechanics + their DPS/HPS to maintain.

    It's a lot to focus on, people do have a variance in their cognitive limits. One reason I believe that there is so much angst on this issue is because there doesnt seem any way to overgear and brute force the mechanics on the horizon, which (if you accept that the normal raiders are overloaded) means there is then no hope of clearing the raids unless the nerfs start to get very hefty.
    Yea it's got so overloaded that I have so much crap to do. Oddly enough from a hps maintining stand point I think I had more to keep track of in cata. I had to judge on cooldown but the fights were such that I could afford to keep track of that and not divide my focus a million and one ways. It's just so overwhelming and without the gear to in turn to overcome the fight itself it just becomes an exercise in frustration.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    We tried killing the blues. it sucks. THe dps spend more time running from the heads then they actually do killing the bosses and we spend more time healing and we eventually run oom anyway. .
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned" I make plenty of mistakes on this first kill you can see them all over and an overtuned fight would not allow for a tank to make mistakes!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-04-19 at 08:56 PM.

  12. #1292
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So if you have issues with normal mechanics is your head going to explode if you try heroic stuff?
    No. I expect that from heroic bosses, not from normals and to be honest I always had the option of just not raiding heroics. We could also pick and choose which heroic bosses we wanted to do, can't really pick and choose which normals we want to do. Well I guess I could not raid normals to but that leaves me out in the fucking cold.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1293
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.

    The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.
    No. Most Normal Mode only raiders should not kill Lei Shen right around 5.3; otherwise we'd have all the "I'm good enough to kill Normal Lei Shen, nerf Heroic modes because I have nothing left to do until 5.4" threads.

    5.2 was released 3 months after 5.1 came out, so expect the same amount of time between 5.3 and 5.4.

  14. #1294
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned"
    It is absolutely a gear check and throwing a blue head in just complicates the matter even further. Like I said I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. Killing red and green is so god damn simple. It's just a massive gear check.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    No. Most Normal Mode only raiders should not kill Lei Shen right around 5.3; otherwise we'd have all the "I'm good enough to kill Normal Lei Shen, nerf Heroic modes because I have nothing left to do until 5.4" threads.
    Not really and even then what do you care? Most of you heroic raiders will be 10/12 or 11/12 at that point anyway. What are you now 6/12? by the time 5.3 comes out what will you be? 9/12? 10/12? I don't accept that people will be calling for nerfs or that Blizzard will acceed anyway and I don't think they should even if people are calling for it but you know what I don't understand what you care? If Blizzard did nerf the heroic modes I would be pissed because theirs a place for heroic modes and the content should be there for people who like to do it like that. I also don't think people would be that up in arms asking for heroic nerfs, I mean you can pick and choose which bosses you want on heroic and my understanding is that quite a few are easy as fuck. Currently if your good enough to kill lei shen you can clear a whole bunch of the heroic bosses no problem.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 09:01 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned" I make plenty of mistakes on this first kill you can see them all over and an overtuned fight would not allow for a tank to make mistakes!
    Ah ofc.

    The fights aren't incredibly complicated, you just need to magically know the exact right combination of tactics to use given the raid group you have on the night!

    Nothing hard about that at all is there.
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  16. #1296
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is absolutely a gear check and throwing a blue head in just complicates the matter even further. Like I said I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. Killing red and green is so god damn simple. It's just a massive gear check.
    Ya... I think he is saying if you do it all red green, you are choosing to make it a gear check. If you throw some blue it in complicates the mechanics, but reduces the gear requirement aspect. I remember reading something when we got to mergera that said Red/Green back and forth was the simplest (like you said), but they specified that the trade off is you gotta have some wicked DPS to push through fast enough. So you get the choice with this fight.... More mechanics... or more gear...

  17. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Ya... I think he is saying if you do it all red green, you are choosing to make it a gear check. If you throw some blue it in complicates the mechanics, but reduces the gear requirement aspect. I remember reading something when we got to mergera that said Red/Green back and forth was the simplest (like you said), but they specified that the trade off is you gotta have some wicked DPS to push through fast enough. So you get the choice with this fight.... More mechanics... or more gear...
    No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words. Now if the developers didn't intend this strat to be viable then they ought to make it so that you can't do it that way. PERIOD. At all. Same for the council strat we use.

    It's a non choice. Either the fights are overtuned or the mechanics are overwhelming. NONE OF IT IS NORMAL RAIDING THOUGH. I don't think it's that clear cut mind you, I think they both sort of have interplay with each other but at the end of the day it's a pretty shit choice.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1298
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

    As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

    Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!
    Yes. Its irrelevant how many hours you play. You are in fact an heroic level skill player and you are part of the top 25% of people (the rest never finished T14 Normal).

    Yes, normals should be tuned for normal control of your toon, but normal control of your toon is the control the average player has over it, not the control the top 25% of players have.

  19. #1299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Ah ofc.

    The fights aren't incredibly complicated, you just need to magically know the exact right combination of tactics to use given the raid group you have on the night!

    Nothing hard about that at all is there.
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??

  20. #1300
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
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