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  1. #1301
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880600]No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.[QUOTE]

    You chose to keep the motion of your raiders to a minimum and simple however by doing so you also chose to complicate it for healers by upping the HPS req of the fight. You have the choise to move more or heal your ass off more and do really good dps!

    one choice = execute properly the other is brute force it with A)Really good healers / DPS B) Throw gear from last tier at it or C) Wait to get gear and keep throwing gear at it till it drops!


    I guess we will just agree to dissagree ! Glory of opinions is you don't have to agree with others

  2. #1302
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    I honestly agree with the tactic we chose, and it did work for us. We kept it simple and zerged the fuck out of the boss. It made the fight a massive gear check but a gear check is in many respects easier to overcome especially when your raid has really good dps. If that isn't an intended strat though then they ought to not make it a viable one. if it is one they intend you to do (and imo it is the simplest one) then they ought to tune it as such.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??
    Because he's was born with God's gift to be able to play this video game at the top 25% level. It wasn't practice or anything else, he was naturally born with the skill and talent. Amirite?

  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words. Now if the developers didn't intend this strat to be viable then they ought to make it so that you can't do it that way. PERIOD. At all. Same for the council strat we use.

    It's a non choice. Either the fights are overtuned or the mechanics are overwhelming. NONE OF IT IS NORMAL RAIDING THOUGH. I don't think it's that clear cut mind you, I think they both sort of have interplay with each other but at the end of the day it's a pretty shit choice.
    Its like a slider. You are choosing to keep it simpler, which in turn makes the gear requirements higher. I personally think its genius design. It allows the group trying it to tailor it to their playstyle. Want simple mechanics, fine, but you need more gear. Don't want to wait to get more gear, fine, but its going to be more complicated.


    Complex Mechanics |--------------------------------------| Simple Mechanics
    Lower Gear Higher Gear

  5. #1305
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    We didnt magically pull it from our ass! We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

    is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!

  6. #1306
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=bobyboucher;20880680][QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880600]No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.

    You chose to keep the motion of your raiders to a minimum and simple however by doing so you also chose to complicate it for healers by upping the HPS req of the fight. You have the choise to move more or heal your ass off more and do really good dps!

    one choice = execute properly the other is brute force it with A)Really good healers / DPS B) Throw gear from last tier at it or C) Wait to get gear and keep throwing gear at it till it drops!


    I guess we will just agree to dissagree ! Glory of opinions is you don't have to agree with others
    Yes because it's make the fight gloriously simple. It makes the fight a gear check which we can overcome a lot easier. Again if that strat wasn't intended to be a viable one, it ought not to be viable. If the developers intend that you can choose to do it that way then it ought to be tuned to a more approriate gear level.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Its like a slider. You are choosing to keep it simpler, which in turn makes the gear requirements higher. I personally think its genius design. It allows the group trying it to tailor it to their playstyle. Want simple mechanics, fine, but you need more gear. Don't want to wait to get more gear, fine, but its going to be more complicated.


    Complex Mechanics |--------------------------------------| Simple Mechanics
    Lower Gear Higher Gear

    Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    We didnt magically pull it from our ass! We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

    is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!
    No we don't want shit to just roll over. Does nobody understand what medium difficulty is?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1307
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Because he's was born with God's gift to be able to play this video game at the top 25% level. It wasn't practice or anything else, he was naturally born with the skill and talent. Amirite?
    I disagree. I think a larger portion of "ability" is due to effort than natural skill. Not saying there isn't a natural element involved, just that effort goes a long way. The problem with most people is they are just not willing to put forth that effort.

  8. #1308
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    We didnt magically pull it from our ass!
    But erm you expected mr leader there too...you were even condescending towards him about it....

    We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

    is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!
    Now I am really confused. If that what normals are all about, why are you taking that away from mr leader by showing him what to do?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I disagree. I think a larger portion of "ability" is due to effort than natural skill. Not saying there isn't a natural element involved, just that effort goes a long way. The problem with most people is they are just not willing to put forth that effort.
    I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

    It's not going to change with effort.
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  9. #1309
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.
    So the game should never let you do something the wrong way?

    And it is a viable strat, but only for those who have the gear to make it work.

  10. #1310
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    But erm you expected mr leader there too...you were even condescending towards him about it....



    Now I am really confused. If that what normals are all about, why are you taking that away from mr leader by showing him what to do?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:18 PM ----------



    I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

    It's not going to change with effort.
    I'm providing valid points to back up what I'm saying another part of raiding is going to see what others are doing and seing if you can also use that to your advantge. Thus by stating what helped us some one here could read it present it to there raid and perhaps that will help them. Gathering information is part of "figuring it out" thus I'm not sure where yoru confused but nice try on trying to turn my argument around on me

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:24 PM ----------

    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880717][QUOTE=bobyboucher;20880680]
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.

    Yes because it's make the fight gloriously simple. It makes the fight a gear check which we can overcome a lot easier. Again if that strat wasn't intended to be a viable one, it ought not to be viable. If the developers intend that you can choose to do it that way then it ought to be tuned to a more approriate gear level.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:14 PM ----------




    Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:15 PM ----------



    No we don't want shit to just roll over. Does nobody understand what medium difficulty is?
    Again... it's not overtuned by your own defenition then. You are saying you are choosing the gear check method... but you may not have the gear for that check to be easy at this time. You say you want medium difficulty but are choosing a more difficult way that is made simpler with more gear...that you just don't have atm so it's harder atm (not overtuned), you can say you didn't choose to make it a gear check but the G>R strat is the gear check method and the reason why most overgeared groups ran it was it made the mechanical part simple as they overgeared it... since your not running in heroic gear from T14 you don't overgear it and as such chose to made it harder on yourself untill you get more gear!

  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    This may be true, its hard for me to judge as I am a programmer and that's what I'm good at. However I think that it is mitigated by the fact that you really only need one person like this in your raid.

  12. #1312
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So the game should never let you do something the wrong way?

    And it is a viable strat, but only for those who have the gear to make it work.
    Wait what? The game has always let you do things the wrong way. Are you kidding? Even if their was only ONE strat you could still do it the wrong way.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1313
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

    It's not going to change with effort.
    I think this can be mitigated by things like DBM. Can't remember to watch for mechanics? You will when DBM jumps up in your face and reminds you about something.

  14. #1314
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    No way, if they 9 man it they take a full dps out of the equation. Now if it's a hard DPS check due to gear like Mr leader is saying then being 1 man down would have screwed them. But obviously it doesn't because they do the proper strategy.

  15. #1315
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880717]
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post

    Again... it's not overtuned by your own defenition then. You are saying you are choosing the gear check method... but you may not have the gear for that check to be easy at this time. You say you want medium difficulty but are choosing a more difficult way that is made simpler with more gear...that you just don't have atm so it's harder atm (not overtuned), you can say you didn't choose to make it a gear check but the G>R strat is the gear check method and the reason why most overgeared groups ran it was it made the mechanical part simple as they overgeared it... since your not running in heroic gear from T14 you don't overgear it and as such chose to made it harder on yourself untill you get more gear!
    No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Wait what? The game has always let you do things the wrong way. Are you kidding? Even if their was only ONE strat you could still do it the wrong way.
    I was referencing the below section of your quote.


    That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that.

  17. #1317
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I was referencing the below section of your quote.
    Please you know exactly what I meant. We cheese council and megara by purposely avoiding some of the mechanics that make the fight mechanically more difficult. If they didn't want us to do that then they ought not to have let us do that. Bosses let you fuck up all the time before and even when their was only ONE strat you could still not execute that strat correctly i.e do it the wrong way.

    This is however entirely off tangent. However you want to square it the fights are to fucking hard for a normal raid. PERIOD. End of story.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1318
    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880929]
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.
    Complex does not necessarily equal hard.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 03:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Please you know exactly what I meant. We cheese council and megara by purposely avoiding some of the mechanics that make the fight mechanically more difficult. If they didn't want us to do that then they ought not to have let us do that. Bosses let you fuck up all the time before and even when their was only ONE strat you could still not execute that strat correctly i.e do it the wrong way.

    This is however entirely off tangent. However you want to square it the fights are to fucking hard for a normal raid. PERIOD. End of story.
    Ahh, sorry got confused as to what you meant. I see now. You are saying that doing it the wrong way (cheesing) on some fights makes them easier, where on mergera it makes the gear part harder.

    The definition of "normal raid" is not really set in stone, so no its not really the end of the story... sorry.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-19 at 09:47 PM.

  19. #1319
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880929]
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.
    Both strats are viable...yet both have there strong and weak points!

    One strat is viable where you can ignore the motion mechanic by outhealing and out dpsing the extra damage. It's not just the green shit etc Im talking about but there is also the fact the blue head will be STOMPING on your tank with extra damage due to never being killed and ramping up its + dmg buff and at the end when everyone is taking shit tons of dmg and the tank is getting beat it's going to put huge stain on healers. To overcome this your tank's need good gear and you need good healers to OVERCOOME the fact you are choosing to ignore the resetting dmg buff mechanic. Thus you are choosing to eat more dmg for the benefit of less mobility req. This is the reason we toss in ONE blue head kill in the mix so at the end the tanks arent being anihilated and healers can focus on the entire raid > tunel visioning almost dead tanks!

    One strat you will need to move more and the fight may go on longer however overall dmg to your tanks will be lower due to decreased dmg buff on head and less gear will be needed by your tanks to soak the dmg as such less HPS is also needed to keep them up.

    They are both viable they just have there positive and negatives. If one is too hard then you do the other if that ones too hard then do a mix etc etc!


    Edit: I just thought of it and not killign the blue head is like wars standing in fire for more rage to do more dps back in the day! Sure the good guilds with great healers were able to pull it off but the avg guild with avg raiders would have flipped shit on the war for trying that shit! Not sure why it should be any different now!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-04-19 at 09:50 PM.

  20. #1320
    The real crux of it is, what is the appropriate % of players able to complete normals in time for the next raid (which isn't what Glorious even wants). Glorious said himself that he wants to be done by 5.3 and possibly try some heroics.

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