Holy mother 10man nerf

[Glorious Leader]

Thats not data, that's a tweet !!

Obviously but the tweet would tend to lead one to a conclusion would it not?

[Osmeric]

Very few people want to farm old stuff to do new stuff.

Given that's the case, it's bad design to expect them to.

More precisely, as soon as you ask someone to do content when it's obsolete, the natural inclination is to say "ok, if there's no time pressure, I'll wait even more, so it becomes even easier". Taken to its logical conclusion, this means doing the raid not in this expansion, but after the release of the next.

Blizzard doesn't want this, since a person could consume all this expansion's raid content in one slurp after 6.0.*, then unsub. To retain subs, incremental, relevant progress on current content needs to be occurring.

[seijo]

No i never understand what I post /sarcasm

The point is, in this thread, there is clear evidence that people DONT go back to clear T14 raids. They don't want to, for whatever reason i am not trying to explain.So saying the gear up didn't help and the nerfs were needed, is very misguided since people were probably not farming T14 raids during T15 content (do you?).

That being said, in absolute terms, as Candiman says, we dont have data to support either claim. Just a feeling from people in this thread. And I haven't seen one person in this thread, who was blocked at Horridon, say that YES, they do farm all T14 content each week to help them beat ToT.

If Blizzard released that data, id be willing to listen and learn. But as usual, they don't release their data, and thus saying they nerfed because people couldnt get passed horridon while maximising their catchup mechanics (=your argument) is about as accurate as saying people don't farm T14 and expect ToT to fall over (=my argument). We just don't really have any susbstance to support either claim, other than the comments in this thread.

Problem is whether or not people go back to farm t14 is irrelevant. Blizzard can't force people to go back and farm old content. Well I suppose gating it at a high ilvl can, but then obviously they don't want to do that as seen by all these nerfs already. At the same time though Blizzard wants raiders to progress in current content. Gear from old content is simply a means to an end at that point. Unless they require some elaborate attunement process done through finishing T14 on normal or simply gated it to a very high ilvl, you can't force it. People will always want the new shiny. Besides at this point, T15 LFR is higher ilvl than T14 normal so I really think you're making a bigger deal out of T14 farming than it actually is.

Blizzard actually said they were going to tune encounters a certain way during t14 when it came to nerfing content that people kept hitting a wall on, they followed through with it, and they did it again here. Seems pretty consistent imo. We don't need to see their data because isn't it obvious the reason they'd nerf it because they have some data backing up their decision? You really think they are giving each other high fives and cashing bonus checks each time a nerf goes out?

[Osmeric]

Good, i wish all of the whiners and bad would quit to be honest.

So, you work for a Blizzard competitor, and wish the game would collapse? Because losing what the elite call the "bad" players would be an extinction-level event for the game.

[Candiman]

Looking at the latest Horridon kills on Wowprogress most guilds now killing it have an iLevel of 502 or above so it appears guilds have still been gearing up either through T14, LFR and/or valor.

[Deleted]

Obviously but the tweet would tend to lead one to a conclusion would it not?

If you trust GC, then yes. After years of GC bullshit and flip flopping on pretty much every single issue, I pretty much only believe what i see when it comes to GC / WoW.
I would totally believe it if I saw it, but Blizzard / GC's lack of n umbers on every single issue. For example, the whole DPS balancing / simcraft doesnt work / raidbots not reliable / parses not reliable - but we don't wanna release our own internal numbers (but really, trust me we have loads).

[Glorious Leader]

If you trust GC, then yes. After years of GC bullshit and flip flopping on pretty much every single issue, I pretty much only believe what i see when it comes to GC / WoW.
I would totally believe it if I saw it, but Blizzard / GC's lack of n umbers on every single issue. For example, the whole DPS balancing / simcraft doesnt work / raidbots not reliable / parses not reliable - but we don't wanna release our own internal numbers (but really, trust me we have loads).

It depends. Look at some point you do have to trust the guy, he is directing the game. If you don't then I have to ask why do you play it? You won't approve of his general direction and are convinced hes lying to you anyway why keep playing? I don't think he's lying about this, I do think that the data suggests most guilds were stuck because the bosses were real fucking hard real early in the raid. I've raided at virtually every level in this game and I've never seen bosses this tough this early in an instance. In fact healing normal 10 man horridon and tortos felt like healing heroics, maybe even worse.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 07:36 PM ----------

Very few people want to farm old stuff to do new stuff.

Given that's the case, it's bad design to expect them to.

It's awful hard to get people who've already cleared that content to go back and do it for others who need it.

It's the TBC problem all over again unfortunately.

[KCguy]

Np we all believe that.

haha, it's all good. It was an honest typo though. Super late, you don't pay attention or proof read at times.

[Deleted]

It depends. Look at some point you do have to trust the guy, he is directing the game. If you don't then I have to ask why do you play it? You won't approve of his general direction and are convinced hes lying to you anyway why keep playing? I don't think he's lying about this, I do think that the data suggests most guilds were stuck because the bosses were real fucking hard real early in the raid. I've raided at virtually every level in this game and I've never seen bosses this tough this early in an instance. In fact healing normal 10 man horridon and tortos felt like healing heroics, maybe even worse.

Regarding GC / Why do I play etc
I really dont need to trust / believe / read GC everyday to play and enjoy the game like i have been doing for the past 4-5 years. I raid because it's pretty much my favourite entertainment activity. I don't think GC has any influence on that (read, on the fact that I enjoy raiding instead of surfing). sure, he can affect the raiding, but unless he radically changes everything, it's not really going to matter what he says, and whether i trust / believe what he says. I dont distrust him either, i just take him like any forum poster : prove it or make a good argument, and i believe you. He does neither of those, so meh.

His interactions with the community actually add not much to the game imho (game, not community, thats different). To take it a step further, i actually think the game could (not 100% sure) be better without all these blue posts etc. This is the only game in the world with this amount of dev interaction, and while it's incredibly cool in theory, i think it might actually hinder the game and player improvement as everyone expects their posts top be answered, and are hanging on blueposts ... in the end, you have almost more forum talk about blue posts than activity in game ! If we all spent the time we spend on forums in game, perfecting our skills and not waiting for blue posts / tweets every minute, refreshing mmo champ every 12 minutes, then hey, we might actually get the skills to beat the bosses in time...

And to be honest, i don't think they have that much more data than we do. I think they should, but really, if they did, they would release it. It would totally be at their advantage to thwart threads like this one with numbers. But no, for some strange reason they never show any numbers... always found that very strange

Regarding the difficulty of current normals :
I've raided both normals and HC since nax pretty much. And this tier imo has incredibly simple and predictable mechanics on the first 4-6 bosses. Absolutely no RNG like you had on say Toxitron, Shannox, even Flame leviathan to a certain extent ... I'd even argue Marrowgar was a harder first boss, as if people didn't nuke the spikes, or stood in the path during tornado ... yeah gone. All these first bosses are super easy, but i find this tier 15 much easier.
But it's not about me.
And for the rest of the player base, while on my server i see everyone laugh at the content, on forums i do see mixed messages, but that's like every single raid. Some people say it's faceroll, some say their eyes are bleeding. The healing ... on these normal fights the healing is only hard is someone is messing up. (am not a healer, but that's the general jist from the healers i have talked to, and it makes sense for normals)

[Crashdummy]

It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.

You havent read the thread, have you?

I am talking about the completion rates of t14.

Only 25% completed T14 after 5 months and with item upgrades nerfing the content.

T15 wasnt being completed faster.

[Algearond]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/895...il_10-4_9_2013



Over-tuned fight on 10man slightly. Makes this faceroll defiantly.
Don't know how to feel about this other than our undergeared 3rd team might actually get some progress now. For my main team this means I can slack.


Needed Nerf after changing how the beam moves. Not fun to get hit by the beam due to bug cause it moves faster and there is no where to run.


Really just really. It was already easy. Again our 3rd team might get progress now. Means i can skumbag dps the boss :P


Nothing to say about this nerf other than i think it was needed. Though they should implemented it on 25-man as well.


Fell of my chair when I saw this from laughter. How is this needed? They want us to go 5 healers now or something like that?

All in all some nerf i think was needed but come on. Well at least we have more time to progress now and won't have to waste time on the bosses beforehand since they become alot more faceroll.

This is why I only do LFR nowadays. I DESPISE nerfs.

[Glorious Leader]

-snip-

So put aside all that crap because well in my humble and earnest opinion (as someone who's raided at virtually every level of content this game has had to offer for almost 7 yeras now) it's just wrong but I have to ask why do you think they nerfed it? You don't think it's difficulty and you think ghostcralwer is lying about the numbers why do you think they nerfed it? You've eliminated the most likely reason and were sorta now in the realm of goofball conspiracy theories so i'd love to hear why.

[Tharkkun]

If you trust GC, then yes. After years of GC bullshit and flip flopping on pretty much every single issue, I pretty much only believe what i see when it comes to GC / WoW.
I would totally believe it if I saw it, but Blizzard / GC's lack of n umbers on every single issue. For example, the whole DPS balancing / simcraft doesnt work / raidbots not reliable / parses not reliable - but we don't wanna release our own internal numbers (but really, trust me we have loads).

Considering Blizzard designs the game and has direct access to the algorithm's and code I would trust Blizzard over people reverse engineering the code and developing "theory" craft. Don't get me wrong, theory crafting definitely is a plus in this game and people work hard to get it correct but many times they have to rely on assumptions. It's going to be tough to get things perfect when they might be modeling around inaccurate information.

You do know Ghostcrawler acts as a liaison so specific feedback can be funneled through one person? It would be a nightmare to have 1 person for every class, pvp, pve, etc. As it stands they tell us stuff in advance and then decide whether it goes live. I find it much better than before TBC where there was zero communication with the players. Patches appeared and we guessed on the changes.

[Gnarles Malarkey]

Hey guys. What's up with Durumu's beam?

[Deleted]

So put aside all that crap because well in my humble and earnest opinion (as someone who's raided at virtually every level of content this game has had to offer for almost 7 yeras now) it's just wrong but I have to ask why do you think they nerfed it? You don't think it's difficulty and you think ghostcralwer is lying about the numbers why do you think they nerfed it? You've eliminated the most likely reason and were sorta now in the realm of goofball conspiracy theories so i'd love to hear why.

In a nutshell, to resume my posts over the past pages :
I think people are not maximising the catchup mechanics (LFR + 3x T14 raids + Valor rewards + Rep) and then going into ToT undergeared and failing. this is what generates the numbers between boss 1 and 2 (they had stated jinrokh was a bit of a ptchwerk, much easier fight.)
And now, as people fail, they have to adress the QQ.

These mechanics were put in place to avoid having the blanket boss nerfs / blanket player buffs we had in ICC DS etc, and i think it's a much better solution thank blanket buffs / nerfs.

But yes, i have no numerical proof for this, only reading what people say in this thread (ie, "i dont wanna do T14 when T15 is out and Blizzard can't force me").

EDIT / ADD : i am not saying GC is lying, i am not saying hes saying the truth, i am saying i want to see his glorious data. that's all. Until then , i can't believe or not believe him. Its just as much worth as someone's opinion in this thread.

[Andaja]

The thing is that the model that is now is a tbc one, which had at least 2 years worth of expansions inbetween. In that time people got used to "lazy" mode as you would call it. Suddenly making them go to tbc model back again wont be instant. It might be like with relationships. It takes as much time to forget as it lasted. So to really hope people will get back to:" you need to get back to previous tiers if you are having problems in current tier", it simply wont happen now. People would rather quit than adapt. 4 out of 12 in my ten man team were going mental at the slight mention of t14 and would either not sign for that raid or instantly log of, or just leave group. We later got few more that said they would rather go to sleep then raid t14. That's just shows that current catch up mechanics are not that good for current people. Wouldn't it be just easier to just accept that that's how things are most likely going to happen if they happen at all and just stop this 18 pages of discussions that more or less leads nowhere as it's very clear - people like their opinion and its very vey hard to change it.

[NeverStop]

In TBC, my former casual 2 night a week guild was still on SSC by the time Sunwell came out. We eventually killed Vashj and we were midway through Black Temple before WoTLK came out. None of us got mad at Blizzard because TBC raids were "overtuned" and therefore we didn't get to "see the content." We just accepted that we weren't good enough to complete the raids and we improved significantly during Ulduar, ToC, and ICC.

Back then, you didn't expect to clear every raid tier while it was current. I don't see why people believe they're entitled to complete the current tier on normal mode now. If you feel you're being denied storyline or lore, LFR is there for everyone to "see the content."

[Deleted]

In TBC, my former casual 2 night a week guild was still on SSC by the time Sunwell came out. We eventually killed Vashj and we were midway through Black Temple before WoTLK came out. None of us got mad at Blizzard because TBC raids were "overtuned" and therefore we didn't get to "see the content." We just accepted that we weren't good enough to complete the raids and we improved significantly during Ulduar, ToC, and ICC.

Back then, you didn't expect to clear every raid tier while it was current. I don't see why people believe they're entitled to complete the current tier on normal mode now. If you feel you're being denied storyline or lore, LFR is there for everyone to "see the content."

Back then, almost no one raided.

[Osmeric]

The thing is that the model that is now is a tbc one, which had at least 2 years worth of expansions inbetween. In that time people got used to "lazy" mode as you would call it. Suddenly making them go to tbc model back again wont be instant.

After BC, I decided I'd never play an expansion that repeated that bait-and-switch. Wrath didn't, but Cataclysm looked like it was, so I left. I am also snubbing the BC-like part of MoP, as it appears many others are.

No one is going to make me go back to the BC model. They try that, I leave. They slide far enough in that direction, and I leave. The lesson, once learned, will not be unlearned.

[clevin]

In TBC, my former casual 2 night a week guild was still on SSC by the time Sunwell came out. We eventually killed Vashj and we were midway through Black Temple before WoTLK came out. None of us got mad at Blizzard because TBC raids were "overtuned" and therefore we didn't get to "see the content." We just accepted that we weren't good enough to complete the raids and we improved significantly during Ulduar, ToC, and ICC.

Back then, you didn't expect to clear every raid tier while it was current. I don't see why people believe they're entitled to complete the current tier on normal mode now. If you feel you're being denied storyline or lore, LFR is there for everyone to "see the content."

In TBC there was no 10 man raiding.
In TBC there was no LFR.
In TBC there were no heroic modes.

In TBC, if you wanted to raid, you didn't have any choice but to do what your guild did. Individuals could have left for more progressed guilds (something that happened a LOT) but guilds raided what they could or stopped raiding at all. There weren't other options.

In MoP, there are other option. My guild started raiding again 3 weeks before 5.2. We finished off MSV and were 1/6 HoF when MoP dropped. Since then, every week, we've killed Jinrokh and have progressively cleared T14. We've now cleared T14 aside from Sha. That's not the issue. The issue is the contention by some above that we should have to farm T14 for another month or two *in order to kill the second frigging boss in ToT.*

If you've farmed T14N you will be somewhere in the 490s in ilevel, presuming you did no heroic fights. This is where the second and third bosses should be tuned... from 495 to 500. The issue is simply that Horridon especially was tuned for 502 or so which meant that a raid noticeably under that ilevel (say, a raid that had only cleared T14N) had less room for errors. This nerf feels like it brings him down to a tuning of somewhere in the 490s which matches the gearing you will have coming out of T14N and is where it should have been all along.

By the way, I love the people above who claim they're in a casual guild when they've killed heroics and are sporting ilevels way above 510. Earth to those folks... heroic raiding isn't casual. It might be in terms of time taken, but it's not in terms of focus. Of course you found the first bosses easier if you were farming T14N and H. You're entering it with better than average gear and you're by definition better raiders.