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  1. #121
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    I don't like the style of healing that's becoming the norm. That's my point. If the new way to heal is just to maximize throughput at all times with no regard for anything like resource management, active regen or triage .... then quite frankly, screw healing, I'll just go play my enhance shaman. Maximizing throughput for the duration of the fight is a dps mentality and I don't like the fact that healers are having to play that way most of the time now.
    Maybe I'm just bad, but I don't feel this is how healing is to begin with, nor do I think that this is becoming the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    Of the 8 bosses I've killed in Throne, none of them made me feel like I needed to put a lot of effort into managing my resources or triage healing.
    Right, you haven't even cleared the normal modes. Whether this is due to your fault, your guild's fault, your raid leader's GF's fault, or your raid schedule's fault, the point is you're probably not being very challenged by the encounters. When I heal normals now (for instance when we clear after our raid week) I also tend to smash blanket heals and "act like a DPS." That's due to having no pressure and little else to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    They made me feel like if I stopped healing for any real length of time, people were going to die, and I'm even healing with a disc priest who can mitigate incoming damage pretty well, which should let me feel like I can have some downtime for regen.
    Jin'rokh: Downtime especially on normal mode.
    Horridon: Downtime.
    Council of Elders: This is pretty high constant damage, but on heroic there still are more "burst" phases with more "relaxed" phases of damage.
    Megaera: (Relative) downtime (again especially on normal).
    Ji-Kun: Downtime.
    Durumu: (Relative) downtime (again, especially on normal).

    Yeah, that's 5 of your first 8 bosses with "downtime" phases. Even on heroic mode, of which I've done all but Durumu (and primordius), there are relatively low-damage phases for downtime. I don't understand your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    Personally, I want to go back to something like tier 11 when healing meant controlling your throughput and balancing that with resource management. There would be periods of heavy healing where you had to go balls to the wall and periods where your goal was to get as much mana back as you could and spend as little as possible. That was a much more dynamic playstyle and that's where I want to see things go.
    I mean, the first tier of an expansion is always going to have the most triage, and the last tier will always have the least. That's an inevitable function of gearing. While the spirit/intellect changes actually mean healers have to care more about mana/resources than past final tiers (read: DS, ICC) inevitably you will shift toward "lower available resources to deal with lower amounts of damage" to "higher available resources to deal with higher amounts of damage."

    This tier honestly has a lot of throughput control and definitely a lot of resource management. When I was healing Council of Elders, on the first few pulls I would be oom as soon as the 4th possession phase. A big challenge of the fight was allocating cooldowns and healing properly so that I would be able to continue dealing with the constant, massive amount of raid damage while taking advantage of relative downtime periods. Part of the challenge there was realizing that while there was almost constant raid damage, only certain raid damage phases were especially deadly, the remaining phases could in fact be "triaged."


    I agree that constant "how fast can you spam X" is not fun. But I don't see this in the current tier at all, perhaps you'd like to elaborate?



    --------

    [edit] TL/DR:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    I really don't understand addressing "issues" that arise from "low damage situations"- if it's a low damage situation then it's not going to affect your raids success in any way. That means that some of you are *literally arguing that you don't like your place on the meters, even when those meters mean absolutely nothing*.

    Am I the only one who thinks it's entirely pointless to argue about relative strength of healers in "low damage situations"? Stop focusing on healing meters ffs.
    This, so much this.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Now, the daybreak thing sounds fun. At 1 stack it'll be a nerf, not a very significant one, but a nerf non-theless..
    Actually, I believe the comments coming in from those off the PTR is that it does 75% of the healing on every person. So if your HS hits for 100k, and you have 5 people in range, then each player will be healed for 75k. Which is quite a buff. But I haven't been on there myself so I can't confirm or deny it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    I highly doubt you are reaching 40.60% mastery. Even with Blessing Of Might, it's not even remotely obtainable with an ilvl of 517.
    I'm 516 equipped and with might, I'm sitting at 43.36%.
    Last edited by Ceresc; 2013-04-17 at 11:46 PM.

  3. #123
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Spirit is a throughput stat, in a roundabout sort of way. Spirit allows you to cast more spells, spells generate HoPo, HoPo allows you to cast more spells, spells generate healing. It's not a throughput stat in the traditional sense that it modifies spells directly, but it allows you to cast more of those spells.

    There's also no *requirement* to stack spirit. Take, for example, Eloderung, who has opted to go straight Crit/Mastery going as far as reforging out of spirit. It's a low spirit build and he performs just fine compared to those who spirit stack. (He also has the #3 parse for Heroic Megaera to support it's viability)
    Did I say spirit was a requirement? He is gearing crit and using glyph of illumination, so efficiency is still in play which was my point, considering the person I responded to basically said they should nerf mastery to the ground so "efficiency comes back in play". And as void said, his raid is stacked with mana cooldowns which I mentioned in the post you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    If the new way to heal is just to maximize throughput at all times with no regard for anything like resource management, active regen or triage .... then quite frankly, screw healing, I'll just go play my enhance shaman. Maximizing throughput for the duration of the fight is a dps mentality and I don't like the fact that healers are having to play that way most of the time now.
    You don't maximize your throughput at all times. You don't blow cooldowns to overheal low damage phases. You switch to casting efficient heals during low damage to save and prepare for higher burst damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    Pallies are by far the worst overhealers right now, and its because we're pushed that way.
    Monks would like to have a word with you. There is a reason why they completely dominate heroic tortos. All the raw healing they have that usually overheals is turned into effective healing.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-18 at 12:01 AM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, spirit is purely a regen stat, there's never going to be a situation where stacking spirit results in higher healing done than you would stacking your best output stat.
    Over an extended period of time, say a boss encounter, it certainly will.

  5. #125
    Brewmaster Requite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, you don't understand, holy paladin mastery is worse than spirit shell. Spirit shell at least requires the finesse of planning, IH is completely passive and rewards heal spam regardless of the situation. Paladins already intrude on the gameplay of HoT healers such as Mistweavers and Restoration Druids. Without even considering the fact that you have one talent which makes you arguably better at the specialized niche of two other classes, how on earth do you think it's fair that it also has a buffer to the main caveat of said niche (overhealing).

    I'm lucky enough to play with two very talented holy paladins, I cannot compete with either of them until damage starts getting past their shields. Even in heroic content, their shields can stack during low damage phases to absurd amounts, when it comes time for actual damage on the raid it's completely neutered.

    Paladins have currently by far the best HoT in the game, the best shields in the game, the best cooldowns in the game, and the best tank healing in the game. All of which they can access with one talent build, which is pretty much godmode as far as PvE healing is concerned. As far as I can see, every problem with paladins at the minute is caused by their cheap access to Eternal Flame, which could be solved either by entirely removing the ability (my ideal solution), giving it a minimum HP cost, making the HoT portion not transfer to beacon and not generate IH, making your mastery not generate shields on overhealing, or nerfing the crap out of your mastery.

    I don't like this solution, because by next patch we'll be in the same boat all over again, but it's better than nothing and I'll definitely take it.
    Q_Q more, it feeds Uthers spirit.

    When posting, please try to remain on topic and to contribute to the thread. - Malthanis
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-04-18 at 01:41 PM.
    Great Uther's ghost, it's chasing after us! Squire, do something! Throw rocks at it! I have no plan!

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    Actually, I believe the comments coming in from those off the PTR is that it does 75% of the healing on every person. So if your HS hits for 100k, and you have 5 people in range, then each player will be healed for 75k. Which is quite a buff.
    If that's true, there's no way it'll go live that way. With the tier bonus, HR-HR-HS would heal a whole crowd of people for upwards of 400k each, not including IH...

  7. #127
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    If that's true, there's no way it'll go live that way. With the tier bonus, HR-HR-HS would heal a whole crowd of people for upwards of 400k each, not including IH...
    With the recent data mined patch notes it does say it is shared across all allies within 10 yards so, its the same as the live version, but it now has a stacking element to it to get the most of it.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    There's also no *requirement* to stack spirit. Take, for example, Eloderung, who has opted to go straight Crit/Mastery going as far as reforging out of spirit. It's a low spirit build and he performs just fine compared to those who spirit stack. (He also has the #3 parse for Heroic Megaera to support it's viability)
    No offense but im pretty sure most paladins would be able to do that much healing if they had 3 mana tides and two hymns. His raid in general also seems to run with a low amount of raid cds and the shamans are using healing tide which is inferior to AG on Megaera. If you check their heroic primordius kill for this week he is suddenly doing awful healing which is no surprise considering he is only getting one mana tide on that boss.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Did I say spirit was a requirement?
    I'm not really sure why you think my post was directed at you in any way. =(

    It was more directed at the "Why should somebody stacking spirit be able to compete/beat somebody stacking throughput stats" and showing that, while spirit is generally accepted as the strongest secondary for holy, there are other options. Obviously some have pointed out that he may very well have a unique situation that allows him to succeed with that build.

    The whole argument of "a healer with throughput stats should beat a healer with regen stats" is a very poor and short-sighted argument imo. I'm not going to directly argue that spirit is a throughput stat, but it undoubtedly increases throughput over an extended period of time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 10:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    No offense but im pretty sure most paladins would be able to do that much healing if they had 3 mana tides and two hymns. His raid in general also seems to run with a low amount of raid cds and the shamans are using healing tide which is inferior to AG on Megaera. If you check their heroic primordius kill for this week he is suddenly doing awful healing which is no surprise considering he is only getting one mana tide on that boss.
    Definitely some good points. I don't think his numbers on Primordius are entirely due to his build. The buffs in that fight can GREATLY skew numbers and just a quick pass at the debuffs shows that his fellow paladin gained 5 buffs of +10% mastery and had a 73%+ uptime on that particular buff. Elo, on the other hand, only had 1 stack of the buff and a 23% uptime. But my main point is that Primordius is one of those fights that had mechanics that can *GREATLY* alter/skew numbers. While having minimal sources of external mana cooldowns may have played a part, I think there are other factors that have a much larger influence over performance and numbers.

  10. #130
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    My feelings exactly. How do the paladins dare competing with disc priests >_<
    lol.

    I'm sorry but can Paladins, or Disc Priests, honestly post such stuff while keeping a straight face? You're what, about 15% ahead of Druids/Shamans and you're upset you're getting nerfed? :P

    I personally think the absorb system should be re-designed totally, that or give all healers a form of absorb (Earth Shield/Cenarias Ward act like Sacred Shield, Living Seeds become the Druids mastery and act similar to Illuminated Healing etc). Absorbs, as they are, are simply too powerful and render other healers obsolete. It's unfair that two specs can have that type of dictatorship over the healing board.

    Then again, I don't blame you for being upset for being nerfed. It's normal, no-one wants to be nerfed. But you are indeed being nerfed for a reason, and even with these nerfs, I'll predict that you will remain top tier healers (along with Disc) because absorbs this expansion are totally out of hand.

    Hopefully next expansion, they learn. Absorbs have been steadily getting more and more ridiculous since Wrath.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Definitely some good points. I don't think his numbers on Primordius are entirely due to his build. The buffs in that fight can GREATLY skew numbers and just a quick pass at the debuffs shows that his fellow paladin gained 5 buffs of +10% mastery and had a 73%+ uptime on that particular buff. Elo, on the other hand, only had 1 stack of the buff and a 23% uptime. But my main point is that Primordius is one of those fights that had mechanics that can *GREATLY* alter/skew numbers. While having minimal sources of external mana cooldowns may have played a part, I think there are other factors that have a much larger influence over performance and numbers.
    While I agree that ones healing can vary on primordius, 80k hps is almost the healing of a paladin without the use of the (de)buffs. Yes his way of healing works to some extend but I honestly dont think he has a clue, not because I think he is gearing wrong but because he is stacking mastery and crit and then use a spirit trinket.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    While I agree that ones healing can vary on primordius, 80k hps is almost the healing of a paladin without the use of the (de)buffs. Yes his way of healing works to some extend but I honestly dont think he has a clue, not because I think he is gearing wrong but because he is stacking mastery and crit and then use a spirit trinket.
    The spirit trinket also provides 662 additional mastery when reforged.

    Elo has a pretty good reputation with a lot of holy paladins, and has always been willing to test/try some "nonstandard" builds and has basically always succeeded with them. While I may not agree that it's the *best* way to build, I don't think he's hurting his guild either. I can certainly understand the skepticism over what he's trying.

  13. #133
    I do remember his name from a lot of logs but my statement still holds true, if you are going for full crit and mastery you are also going to want as much int as possible so he gains 662 mastery but skips 1467 int. It just doesnt make any sence.

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    I'm sorry but can Paladins, or Disc Priests, honestly post such stuff while keeping a straight face? You're what, about 15% ahead of Druids/Shamans and you're upset you're getting nerfed? :P
    No I'm upset that we risk an overnerf, because once we lose our 4xT14, our HP generation will fall. I think that change alone would be enough to balance the healing power. No need to mess up with mastery ratings.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    No I'm upset that we risk an overnerf, because once we lose our 4xT14, our HP generation will fall. I think that change alone would be enough to balance the healing power. No need to mess up with mastery ratings.
    Having more regen will balance this out to some extent as more regen = more DL on tank or HR so more HP through this method instead.

  16. #136
    So without the T15 2pc, stacks of daybreak do 75%/150%, but if you have the 2pc, it's 120%/200%? Math isn't my thing...

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by soulkeeperx View Post
    So without the T15 2pc, stacks of daybreak do 75%/150%, but if you have the 2pc, it's 120%/200%? Math isn't my thing...
    112.5% and 225%

  18. #138
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    I'm sorry but can Paladins, or Disc Priests, honestly post such stuff while keeping a straight face? You're what, about 15% ahead of Druids/Shamans and you're upset you're getting nerfed?
    Because some of us doubt that without 4pc, we're actually 15% ahead. Most good players are able to look beyond HPS meters, this goes with both absorb healers and non-absorb healers. Just because you're floating at the top of the healing meters doesn't mean you're contributing the most to the group surviving.

    That and again once you pass non-trivial content, absorbs do fall back and do not "override everyone else's contributions."

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    112.5% and 225%
    Which isn't terrible, but again, the thing is Daybreak's base heal is so low anyway and has such a high overheal.

    Even 500% boosts to a very low amount of healing that mostly overheals is only going to do so much.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Which isn't terrible, but again, the thing is Daybreak's base heal is so low anyway and has such a high overheal.

    Even 500% boosts to a very low amount of healing that mostly overheals is only going to do so much.
    I wouldn't call it a particularly high overhealing spell, through most of my logs the highest I get is around the 38% mark, which is right on par with my other heals on average (actually lower than beacon and holy shock)

  20. #140
    If Daybreak remains unchanged as far as it's interaction on one target goes, it's potentially a VERY powerful tank healing/single target spell. A 50k holy shock with a 225% modifier that also applies mastery is nothing to scoff at imo. (50k + 15k + 112.5k + 33.75k = 211.25K from a single Holy Shock+2xDaybreak)

    So while the AoE is a bit "watered down" the single target potential of Daybreak is actually pretty decent imo.

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