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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Tripz's Avatar
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    Really confused about Disc at the moment

    I do LFR's and stuff to gear up before I start really raiding with my guild (easier transition)

    I currently play Holy for LFR and find it helpful, but I really want to switch to disc because... I was raised on it

    So my initial questions are:

    1. Is Disc good for 25 mans?

    2. I hear of Disc Priests taking the Holy fire, Smite, and Penance glyphs, but is that the way to go? Is Disc really that focused on DPSing as well at the moment? ( Does Penance trigger Evangelism?)

    3. Is Angelic Bulwark a better choice than Desperate prayer?

    4. If I know there will be some huge incoming damage such as Tortos' Stomp, should I get my Archangel up, pop Spirit shell and PoH the hell out of my groups?

    Thanks for taking the time to read, one love
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  2. #2
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    1.) Yes, disc is absolutely fine for 25's, but there holy also shines in 25s. You'll see a much larger return in 10 mans atm for Disc.

    2.) Just the glyph of Smite and Penance. Penance gives you increased mobility. Penance, when targetting an enemy, does trigger Evangelism and Attonement. Glyph of Smite buffs your Attonement heals when the Holy Fire debuff is present. It's less about the DPS and more about the Attonement healing you get in return. A disc priest could, in many fights on normal mode, basically just Smite/Holy Fire/Penance and still be competitive. Weaving in your other spells skillfully is what seperates an average disc from a great disc.

    3.) Depends on the circumstance. Both have the same HPS, but Angelic Bulwark requires you actually proc it every time for it to be equal in those terms. I personally prefer Desperate Prayer in most situations, since it gives me personal control and also has excellent synergy with Void Shift.

    4.)Archangel should be up at all times, and if you are not Attonement healing, should be used as a healing cooldown for additional burst. Spirit Shell should be timed with big AoEs, like Stomp, but Blizzard has tried to not make all the AoEs line up with SS this tier.

    Additional notes:

    Be sure to take advantage of all your other spells as well, such as the tier 6 talents, PoM, and PW:S for rapture procs. Lathus has a guide on disc somewhere in this forum, though I honestly havn't read too much of it.

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  3. #3
    Mechagnome Tripz's Avatar
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    Hey I really appreciate the response, you've shed a lot of light on the topic (no pun intended hehe)

    I checked out his guide and thats where the confusion really hit, so getting someone elses opinion was definitely helpful

    1 more question, Crit trumps all other stats for Disc? I have a ton of mastery/haste gear, should I reforge those stats or keep hoping for those Crit pieces?

    Oh... and your views on Power Word: Solace?
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripz View Post
    Hey I really appreciate the response, you've shed a lot of light on the topic (no pun intended hehe)

    I checked out his guide and thats where the confusion really hit, so getting someone elses opinion was definitely helpful

    1 more question, Crit trumps all other stats for Disc? I have a ton of mastery/haste gear, should I reforge those stats or keep hoping for those Crit pieces?

    Oh... and your views on Power Word: Solace?
    Crit is superior to haste or mastery for throughput. I personally use (based on 1 int) crit = .5, haste/mastery = .4, spirit =0.8 (with a soft cap of 12k, then 0.4 afterwards).

    Solace is superior to mindbender for total mana if you use it on CD (which you should, since it's a great instant heal also and stacks evangelism).

  5. #5
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripz View Post
    Hey I really appreciate the response, you've shed a lot of light on the topic (no pun intended hehe)

    I checked out his guide and thats where the confusion really hit, so getting someone elses opinion was definitely helpful

    1 more question, Crit trumps all other stats for Disc? I have a ton of mastery/haste gear, should I reforge those stats or keep hoping for those Crit pieces?

    Oh... and your views on Power Word: Solace?
    I disagree on Solace. There are plenty of instances where you won't cast Solace on cooldown due to raid mechanics (heavy damage output, spirit shell application, etc). Mindbender also lines up better with multiple hmyn of hope uses. Crit is better for attonement healing, mastery is better for raw output.

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  6. #6
    I want to jump in as I was kind of in your boat recently and I think I found a lot of answers to the very same questions you are asking. Crit seems to be the way to gem / reforge currently, but Mastery doesn't seem very far behind. I'm just going to post a little "best practices" list to work on. I imagine people may disagree. I'm not going to break it out by "low raid damage" "medium raid damage" and "high raid damage" type stuff as I think its rather pointless. During low damage you're just pennance / holy fire / smiting boss or adds.
    1) Offensive Pennance on CD. Atonement healing from this will hit for more than a full POH.
    2) I keep PW:S on both tanks basically full time. I also try and PW:S anyone who is going to take some incoming damage.
    3) Line up Spirit Shell for predictable raid damage. I couple this with Inner Focus, Archangel and Power Infusion.
    4) I try to use Archangel once in between spirit shells.
    5) I use POH instead of smite when it will hit 3 or more targets.
    6) I notice a lot of other disc priests don't make much use of POM, but I really can't justify not having free heals that are instant and smart up. I use POM tracker and just refresh when it wears off so that I take full advantage of the 2 piece bonus.
    7) Use your tier 6 talent. Its really up to you, I think Cascade is the easiest as its fire and forget but as you get better Halo and Divine Star absolutely have a place.

  7. #7
    1. Is Disc good for 25 mans?
    It's pretty much always nice to have at least one disc in a 25 man raid, if you have more (and are aiming for challenging content) it's probably nice if one of you can consider to spec holy on some fights.

    2. I hear of Disc Priests taking the Holy fire, Smite, and Penance glyphs, but is that the way to go? Is Disc really that focused on DPSing as well at the moment? ( Does Penance trigger Evangelism?)
    There's enough movement in ToT that penance pretty much is a requirement on every fight. Considering the power of atonement the smite glyph is also very strong and quite close to mandatory (on some fights you can't afford to smite much which lets you swap in another glyph). The last spot should really be changed depending on the fight and what you need, binding heal, fade, holy fire, pom, weakened soul (10 man only), inner sanctum and even inner fire can all be quite useful. Personally I really like the binding heal glyph on a lot of fights, but with a low spirit it's really hard to make good use of it.

    3. Is Angelic Bulwark a better choice than Desperate prayer?
    Angelic bulwark is really only better if you get stuck in ccs. Desperate prayer is off the gcd, can be used earlier (going from 40->0 with angelic will kill you), can be used to top you after void shift and has a shorter cd. Due to the lack of ccs desperate prayer is pretty much always your go to choice in ToT if you can remember to use it, if you are that guy who usually dies with 3 health stones consider using angelic bulwark instead.

    4. If I know there will be some huge incoming damage such as Tortos' Stomp, should I get my Archangel up, pop Spirit shell and PoH the hell out of my groups?
    Yep.

    1 more question, Crit trumps all other stats for Disc? I have a ton of mastery/haste gear, should I reforge those stats or keep hoping for those Crit pieces?
    Crit is better for attonement healing, mastery is better for raw output.
    For 10 man reforge to crit (the added dps is worth an abyssmal healing loss). For 25 man a mix of mastery and crit can provide slightly better output once you reach a high gear level, until then keep going full crit. Unless your crit is way higher than your mastery crit will be more raw output for any normal spell usage.

    Oh... and your views on Power Word: Solace?
    I disagree on Solace. There are plenty of instances where you won't cast Solace on cooldown due to raid mechanics (heavy damage output, spirit shell application, etc). Mindbender also lines up better with multiple hmyn of hope uses.
    It's pretty much outright superior to mindbender for disc, you have to delay it by close to 10 seconds on average throughout the entire fight for mindbender to come out ahead. There's not a single fight in ToT where you want to do this (unless you have the penance glyph you can't even get enough evengalism stacks for archangel without using it more frequently than that). Mindbender only gets a greater benefit from hymns if you manage to line up close to every use (which isn't practical, and even then it doesn't come close to solace). If you only can line it up occasionally (your hymn, and maybe one more) shadowfiend actually gains a bigger benefit from hymns than mindbender.

    5) I use POH instead of smite when it will hit 3 or more targets.
    Arguably correct for 25 mans, but for 10 man I'd rather smite in that situation (unless there's a lot of outgoing damage, and if so why are only 3 ppl healed). PoH hitting only three targets is barely more mana/time effective than smite (if holy fire/solace is on the target, not at all) and doesn't add any damage. I pretty much agree with the other things you've wrote (especially #6, PoM is so underrated for disc), but I wouldn't really make a rule out of #4 and especially #2 (can be fairly costly to cast multiple pw's outside of rapture, don't hesitate to do it when required but I wouldn't make it a habit).
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-18 at 11:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Hymn and mindbender/shadow fiend should always be used together, you are literally taking mana out of your pocket if you don't. I've been using the combo since wrath and have no problems. Mindbender actually lines up better than shadow fiend for long fights. So I disagree with the statement about solace and definitely think the notion of mindbender/hymn is wrong. And I stand by that, no more need to comment on it.

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  9. #9
    Hymn and mindbender/shadow fiend should always be used together, you are literally taking mana out of your pocket if you don't.
    Yours yes, but you litterarly need to coordinate several other priest hymns with your mindbender as well to make it benefit more from it than shadowfiend. Worth noting that it's quite viable to, in intense fights where channeling for that long can be a problem, just using a tick of your second hymn to get a few seconds of healing out despite being completely dry (hardly something you'll do regularly, but it's still nifty if things go crazy).

    I've been using the combo since wrath and have no problems. Mindbender actually lines up better than shadow fiend for long fights.
    ? Shadowfiend has a 3 minute cd, hymn has a 6 minute cd.

    So I disagree with the statement about solace and definitely think the notion of mindbender/hymn is wrong.
    Why?

    And I stand by that, no more need to comment on it.
    If you don't even want to provide reasoning/discuss it I fail to see why you bother posting it.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-18 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Tripz's Avatar
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    Just ran Durumu and Primordius with Disc, I find it really fun, but the problem I am seeing in my own gameplay is when to stop smiting and when to really buckle down and throw out my heals, any tips? Also, if I do pick up Solace, will the Smite glyph still apply?

    Thanks guys, been a lot of help
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    ? Shadowfiend has a 3 minute cd, hymn has a 6 minute cd.
    Yeah, but to get the max mana out of Sfiend you're going to use it in the first minute or so. Unlikely you'll use HoH by then (and not sure why you would, seeing as it's a pretty important CD to hold on to if you have a healer go down and brez'd). So then they're way out of sync.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripz View Post
    Just ran Durumu and Primordius with Disc, I find it really fun, but the problem I am seeing in my own gameplay is when to stop smiting and when to really buckle down and throw out my heals, any tips? Also, if I do pick up Solace, will the Smite glyph still apply?

    Thanks guys, been a lot of help
    Yes Smite glyph works with Solace.

    As for when to Atonement vs. when to heal, the answer is very rarely will normal healing be more worthwhile than Atonement. Stacking SS obviously, shielding tanks or people about to take big damage, PoH on a group where 4-5 people will be healed, PoM when it will be fully utilized, FH on someone who's very low if offensive penance is on cooldown, and lvl 90 talent when the whole raid needs healing are the only scenarios where I would stop Atonement to do something else. This is more a personal preference thing though as it seems I tend to Atonement heal more than most people.
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  13. #13
    Just ran Durumu and Primordius with Disc, I find it really fun, but the problem I am seeing in my own gameplay is when to stop smiting and when to really buckle down and throw out my heals, any tips?
    For single target you pretty much want to keep atonementing unless other raidmembers are lower/the tank will die if you don't spam flash heal into him, which assuming proper gear really shouldn't happen in any fight this tier (the only fight where it normally does is horridon enrage, and in that fight atonement is insanely buffed anyways). Gheal is even more rarely used (it's barely more hps than smite even if the solace/hf debuff isn't up), but it can be nice combined with IF (if you don't need it elsewhere) or replace smite as a filler if the tank is taking very high damage yet not enough to warrant flash healing.

    If you are in doubt, just atonement, it's the right choice in 99% of the situations (in my last ToT run I used roughly 20 gheals/fheals through the entire instance, not a single gheal without IF I believe). For aoe situations you generally want to keep using solace (if the damage is really intense delay it for a bit) and offensive penance on cd, but replace your filler (smite), with poms, cascade, shields, PoHs and (if glyphed) binding heals.

    Also, if I do pick up Solace, will the Smite glyph still apply?
    Yep.

    Thanks guys, been a lot of help
    You're welcome.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-19 at 12:01 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripz View Post
    Just ran Durumu and Primordius with Disc, I find it really fun, but the problem I am seeing in my own gameplay is when to stop smiting and when to really buckle down and throw out my heals, any tips? Also, if I do pick up Solace, will the Smite glyph still apply?

    Thanks guys, been a lot of help
    In my 10 M, if I'm on the tanks sometimes I'll take penance out of my atonement rotation and onto the tank taking damage to stack grace. I also throw a renew on the tanks to help smooth out the damage and keep PoM on them if I'm worried about an upcoming damage spike. Flash heal as necessary for "oh crap moments" (despite our best intentions, ppl screw up - including me - and you're gonna need it every so often) that don't warrant a full CD (typically the tank takes a big hit, weakened soul on them but no PW:S, pennace & HF on cd). I go to FH pretty quickly when I have inner focus ready and won't need it for PoH soon, especially if I have grace stacked on the target from pennace. (I'm still dragging around the 2 pc t14, so maybe that's part of my crutch).

    Get Prayer of Mending tracker addon and a weak aura for rapture tracking. They've really helped me max out those spells.

    But yeah, atonement is the right answer much of the time.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Yours yes, but you litterarly need to coordinate several other priest hymns with your mindbender as well to make it benefit more from it than shadowfiend. Worth noting that it's quite viable to, in intense fights where channeling for that long can be a problem, just using a tick of your second hymn to get a few seconds of healing out despite being completely dry (hardly something you'll do regularly, but it's still nifty if things go crazy).
    In ten mans its less likely you'll need to coordinate. Further, a 1 minute cooldown is easier to coordinate than a three minute cooldown IF you chose to go that route. Solace forces you into a GCd and punishes you when you don't use it. There are many times a different spell is more beneficial, so it's very easy to get behind on optimal uptime. Healing isn't in a vacuum, so mindbender being off the GCD hit and forget makes it worth more. Each to his own, but I've used both and done comparison math for myself and preferred mindbender.


    ? Shadowfiend has a 3 minute cd, hymn has a 6 minute cd.
    You try to use Shadowfied as soon as possible...very very unlikely you will use hymn there too. When using Shadowfied you have to usually wait until the second Shadowfied (4+ minutes into the fight), which pushes your odds of getting another pretty far out. With mindbender you are getting a hymn around 2+ minutes.[/quote]


    If you don't even want to provide reasoning/discuss it I fail to see why you bother posting it.
    I don't want to talk to YOU about it. I've stated my case and that's how I feel. Some agree. You and others don't. It's really that simple.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I #2 (can be fairly costly to cast multiple pw's outside of rapture, don't hesitate to do it when required but I wouldn't make it a habit).
    I dont understand. I have zero mana issues, one of those 2 pw:s will always proc rapture and they are always eaten up. I don't see why you wouldn't want to pw:s anyone who is going to take enough damage to make full use of the absorb, especially tanks, and especially in 25m (as his post appeared to be in regard to 25s)

  17. #17
    In ten mans its less likely you'll need to coordinate. Further, a 1 minute cooldown is easier to coordinate than a three minute cooldown IF you chose to go that route.
    and in 10 man you rarely have 3+ priests to coordinate with (which is required to make mindbenders HoH synergy superior to sf).

    Solace forces you into a GCd and punishes you when you don't use it.
    There are many times a different spell is more beneficial, so it's very easy to get behind on optimal uptime.
    Holy fire being so strong and procing evengalism does mean that you get punished if you don't use it regularly anyways. The only time you normally can warrant not using holy fire on cd is during SS/extremely heavy aoe damage, and if said aoe damage lasts for a significant time you have to anyways (since you need evengalism/archangel to deal with it).

    Healing isn't in a vacuum, so mindbender being off the GCD hit and forget makes it worth more.
    That's the sha touched weapons I believe, or was that changed?

    Each to his own, but I've used both and done comparison math for myself and preferred mindbender.
    Which means that you delay holy fire significantly for most of the time, which means that it's litterarly impossible for you to have a decent archangel uptime (assuming that you aren't using t14 4p).

    You try to use Shadowfied as soon as possible...very very unlikely you will use hymn there too. When using Shadowfied you have to usually wait until the second Shadowfied (4+ minutes into the fight), which pushes your odds of getting another pretty far out. With mindbender you are getting a hymn around 2+ minutes.
    The additional mana from HoH isn't that huge, you can simply delay your first shadowfiend usage by a few seconds and combine it with hymn, assuming that the fight isn't at a length that you'll get a second HoH if you don't. But you are right that for very specific fight lenghts this may result in an extra hymn/an extra mb use for the mindbender spec, mindbender lining up one additional hymn barely makes it benefit more from it than sf though (and it's still waaay behind solace).

    I don't want to talk to YOU about it. I've stated my case and that's how I feel. Some agree. You and others don't. It's really that simple.
    So mad:P. If you type something on a forum, you may get it questioned or disussed. No one is forcing you to post or respond. Simple.

    ---

    I dont understand. I have zero mana issues, one of those 2 pw:s will always proc rapture and they are always eaten up. I don't see why you wouldn't want to pw:s anyone who is going to take enough damage to make full use of the absorb, especially tanks, and especially in 25m (as his post appeared to be in regard to 25s)
    If you used one pw:s it'd obviously proc rapture as well, and even if the second shield is being absorbed fully it's quite mana inefficent healing. How many shields you can afford to toss out obviously depends on your spirit and outgoing damage (if you have 0 mana issues spamming pw:s in low damage scenarios I'd argue that you could play with less spirit though), but if you can deal just fine with the damage by using atonement over additional shields it's far more efficent. For high damage the solid hps combined with borrowed time obviously makes pw:s a really good choice to weave into your rotation, even when rapture isn't up.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    No one is mad, you just want to believe that you are getting into my head. You're not. I was explaining, and explained, and continue to explain how I feel about it. Once I've said what I had to say, and you say what you have to say, that's the end of it.

    You are talking to a new disc priest here. You lose sight of perspective. Having to maintain solace for a very marginal potential mana gain is not worth it. Sure, there are situations where even I think solace is better, but I still maintain the GCD loss and nature of moments where a tiny heal won't cut it leave plenty of margin for gaps in solace use. It's not worth the investment, especially for a priest coming back into disc.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  19. #19
    No one is mad, you just want to believe that you are getting into my head. You're not. I was explaining, and explained, and continue to explain how I feel about it. Once I've said what I had to say, and you say what you have to say, that's the end of it.
    And I stand by that, no more need to comment on it.
    I don't want to talk to YOU about it. I've stated my case and that's how I feel. Some agree. You and others don't. It's really that simple.
    Sorry, but I found this a bit too amusing. I know you love me deep down.

    You are talking to a new disc priest here. You lose sight of perspective. Having to maintain solace for a very marginal potential mana gain is not worth it. Sure, there are situations where even I think solace is better, but I still maintain the GCD loss and nature of moments where a tiny heal won't cut it leave plenty of margin for gaps in solace use. It's not worth the investment, especially for a priest coming back into disc.
    To me it seems better to learn the right way from the start, and since you pretty much "need to" use holy fire/solace on cd for most of the time anyways, I feel that it's better to point this matter out than to teach them something that's incorrect/sub-par (in the long run). If the margin of error for solace to be superior to mindbender was significantly smaller I'd agree with you on both accounts, but you have to delay it by massive amounts over the course of a fight for this to happen.

  20. #20
    Great info in this post i`m pretty new myself but enjoying disc priests in General
    I do have to say i love this add on i found on Curse to track Rapture its easy lightweight and you can place ti anywhere you want.

    Together with the Pom Tracker its golden.
    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/pray...ending-tracker
    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/ingelasrapture

    Though on a side note is anyone here using Macro`s?
    As i used to use a few as holy but apart from perhaps a Macro to dps the target of my target with a smite or holy fire i dont really see the point.
    Last edited by Succath; 2013-04-19 at 09:21 AM.

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