1. #1

    [SIM CRAFT] Question regarding stat weights

    I am very new to sim craft and just wanted to min/max my character as much as i can. I imported my mage into simcraft and took the stat weights.
    ILVL -> 510 Frost Mage
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    Scale Factors 4.82 3.85 4.14 1.98 2.32 1.60


    I then took these weights and adjusted the askmrrobot weights and "optimized my character" accordingly. Can anyone please tell me am I doing this right as there is a drastic change compared to using askmrrobot default weights. Does the weights look right and should i just follow this?

    Thanks alot. Any help is appreciated.

  2. #2
    First of all I want to preface this by saying that simulationcraft is a simulation and simulations in general although they can be extremely accurate are never exact and must be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, simulationcraft has proven itself as relatively accurate.

    Your technique is not incorrect and I do the same basic thing. It is important to note that all factors effect each other i.e. the more intellect you have the more increased damage your crit's do or the more crit you have the larger the benefit of casting faster with haste. This means that all stats interact with each other. What this means is that if you ran the simulation, adjusted your weights, adjusted your reforging/gemming to the optimal values and then ran simulationcraft again, your scale factors will be slightly different because you now have a slightly different distribution of stats. It is also important to look at the error in the scale factors that simulationcraft provides, basically this tells you the margin of error that statistically exists. Say the scaling factor was 4.82 with a error of .30, this would say that the actual scaling factor (to a certain confidence) is within the range of 4.52-5.12 but simulationcraft cannot say (at their confidence level) what the actual value is.

    So basically what I am saying is:

    1. Simulationcraft is a simulation and is not 100% accurate
    2. Your technique works however if you want to be more accurate you should do a few iterations where you calculate your scaling factors, reforge/regem then calculate your scaling factors. This should converge rather quickly.
    3. Keep in mind that reforging may seem like a lot but all stats are beneficial to every class and intellect dominates all of them so in reality this will typically make only about a 5% difference max. (This is why it is usually better just to reforge for consistency i.e. force hit cap)

    Hope this helps, anyone else is free to jump in and correct me if I made a mistake or said something false.

  3. #3
    thanks for the reply. much appreciated.

    i do understand that there is of course a deviation in results and its not perfect. With that being said is this at least guaranteed to be better than using the default weights provided by askmrrobot?

    Also my other question was I remember seeing people gemming pure haste vs intellect and other gems given a certain ilvl pre5.2. I am now ilvl 510 and even after adjusting to the new weights, askmrrobot is still not having me gem pure haste yet on my slots. Am i doing something wrong?

    Thanks so much, finally starting to understand some of this.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
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    I think your crit is valued so high because you probably havent met up to the 25% crit cap that excists for frost? It's probably a really viable thing to go for once you are making your way through ToT normal/lfr gear, but I would advice not to give up so much haste. Not sure at how much crit % you are right now, if 25% is easy obtainable I would sure go for it, but if you're way off like below 20% i wouldnt go for all out crit.

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  5. #5
    Your Scale Factors are only valid for the current gear your simulating with. Once you change something, your scale factors may change. The more you change your stats, the more likely it is that your scale factors change more drastically. So be cautious not to just change from eg. 1000 crit and 9000 haste to 9000 crit and 1000 haste in one go: The scale factors for the two stats will most likely just flip and your dps might not have gone up at all.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nimryas View Post
    I think your crit is valued so high because you probably havent met up to the 25% crit cap that excists for frost? It's probably a really viable thing to go for once you are making your way through ToT normal/lfr gear, but I would advice not to give up so much haste. Not sure at how much crit % you are right now, if 25% is easy obtainable I would sure go for it, but if you're way off like below 20% i wouldnt go for all out crit.
    First off, the crit cap is 28% (3% boss crit suppression). Second of all, the crit cap isn't worth going for as mastery begins to outweigh crit at higher gear levels.

    Key to Frost: haste haste haste haste. Oh, and more haste.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    First off, the crit cap is 28% (3% boss crit suppression). Second of all, the crit cap isn't worth going for as mastery begins to outweigh crit at higher gear levels.

    Key to Frost: haste haste haste haste. Oh, and more haste.
    I am currently at self buff (brill/ice armor:
    Haste: 25.82
    Crit: 20.41

    I simmed, changed weights in askmrrobot and reforged accordingly. I thought haste gemming pure haste was optimal, but thats not what askmrrobot is telling me?
    Am i just not there yet in ilvl?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nedla View Post
    I am currently at self buff (brill/ice armor:
    Haste: 25.82
    Crit: 20.41

    I simmed, changed weights in askmrrobot and reforged accordingly. I thought haste gemming pure haste was optimal, but thats not what askmrrobot is telling me?
    Am i just not there yet in ilvl?
    Whether to gem pure haste or not is kinda tricky, I have just slightly better gear than you (assumin you don't have tons of mastery) and for me haste gemming is better but only by about 1k dps. This was because I got alot of the SPA gear with hit/mastery and dropped down on haste compared to other stats.
    You can assume that when you pick up a RPPM trinket from ToT gemming haste will be beneficial thanks to the scaling it has with those procs.
    Until then just go for int-gemming unless you increase itemvl while dropping alot of haste.

  9. #9
    Haste being more valuable than intellect on gems is such a "hot issue" yet the impact is so so small. The more important points are in reforging and even that is small potatos.

    The real point is in gear selection where do you get the best gear with the best stats, that is in order
    1. Hit/Haste
    2. Haste/Crit (MAX to Shatter cap, but likely less even when mastery > Crit)
    3. Haste/Mastery
    4. Hit/Mastery gear

    Lets assume a random mage, with 4 yellow slots, 3 blue and 3 red slots.
    Now you can put in 4 Quicks, 3 Lightnings and 3 Reckless for 4 * 320 + 3 * 160 + 3 * 160 = 2240 haste + 3 * 80 Intellect = 240 intellect + 3 * 160 Hit = 480
    Or you can put in 4 Reckless, 3 Veiled and 3 Brilliant for 4 * 160 = 640 + 4 * 80 + 3 * 80 + 3 * 160 = 1040 intellect + 3 * 160 Hit = 480
    Lets compare
    Haste 2240 640
    Intell 240 1040
    Hit 480 480 << Since this is equal lets ignore this

    At first glance very different, now lets add in stat values, Haste flavoured:
    1.0 Intellect
    0.6 Haste
    0.3 Crit

    2240 * 0.6 + 240 * 1 = 1584
    640 * 0.6 + 1040 * 1 = 1424 (or 89.9% of 1584)
    Now a 10% difference (in gems alone) seems to make a big impact but.... this same random mage already has "normal" stats on his gear, meta gem and "normal" enchants. As a result away from the gems he already has 17200 Intellect and 7000 haste rating
    ( 7000 + 2240 ) * 0.6 + ( 17200 + 240 ) * 1 = 5540 + 17440 = 22984
    ( 7000 + 640 ) * 0.6 + ( 17200 + 1040 ) * 1 = 4584 + 18240 = 22824 (or the same 160 rating but only 99.3% of 22984)

    So in reality gemming the one or the other way makes a whopping 0.7% difference in rating.
    Now change this to Intellect flavoured.
    1.0 Intellect
    0.4 Haste
    0.3 Crit

    ( 7000 + 2240 ) * 0.4 + ( 17200 + 240 ) * 1 = 21136
    ( 7000 + 640 ) * 0.4 + ( 17200 + 1040 ) * 1 = 21296 ( or 100.75% of the above)

    So use stat weights for your gear and enchant selection, also use it to some extend to come up with a logical gemming protocol so you gear doesnt look like a mess. I.e. Put and Reckless and Brilliant and Veiled gems into red slots... worse would be to gem with Artfull giving Mastery over Haste, again the impact is minimal but yeah its messy not to mention it looks like you dont know what you are doing.

    The big difference in DPS is going to come from your gear selection and much more so your usage and ab-usage of CDs, Procs or boss mechanics.
    Even RNG swings will be much bigger impact than the way you gem, but gem in a certain way that makes sence... That is structured, that has logic behind it, or look like a fool.

    To get back to your stat weights, Intellect 4.82 vs Haste 2.32, or normalized 1 vs 0.481, which when your exchanging 2 haste for 1 intellect on gems makes it 1 vs 0.962, then yes Reckless will win over Quick does it really matter THAT much ? HELL NO... I will repeat.. Gem in a way that makes sence, keep it structured and win!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 10:07 AM ----------

    Just to add, Reforging, obviously reforging excess hit or to the hit cap will make a fairly decent dent in your dps numbers, but reforing Mastery to Haste or worse Mastery to Crit will make such nominal difference.

    Lets take the normal Tier hands for example, 701 Crit 747 Mastery which offcourse you reforge to 298 Haste and 449 Mastery.
    Now the 298 haste vs 298 mastery is going to be a gain of roughly 298 * 0.2 = 60 "stat value points"
    or 60 / 21000 = 0.29% of a difference on your total gear "Stat value points"

    Assuming 10 pieces can be reforged this way that makes a difference of 600 / 21000 = 2.86% or roughly 3%
    But that is nothing comparing to if the tier item would have a choice to be Haste / Crit instead of Crit / Mastery
    Having a nice 747 Haste instead of 747 mastery.

    Summarizing: Gear selection >>> Reforging > Gemming

    A frost/fire mage in all Valor && Crafted gear = loads of mastery is going to suffer comparing to a "properly" geared mage with far more haste and crit on his gear.
    Last edited by namliam; 2013-04-22 at 09:55 AM.

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