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  1. #1

    Destruction and Demonology differences. Destro is easy, Demo is too hard!

    Hey Warlocks,

    My Guild is starting to work on Horridon and Council, so I figured now was a good time for me to change from Destro to Demo. I've spent the last couple days trying to learn the spec, and I've made a couple unsettling observations. I'm hoping I've got it wrong here.

    Destro is dead easy, the rotation only uses 4 spells: Chaos Bolt, Incinerate, Conflagrate and Immolate.

    Conflagrate flows seamlessly into Incinerate spam, and Immolate doesn't feel like it interrupts what your doing. Your always casting, which feels good.

    Burning Embers last until you use them, and with 40 'bits' to 4 Embers, you don't often run the risk of being Ember capped before you want to spend them.

    Mana is never an issue if your on one target and gearing for haste.

    This means your just spamming Incinerate/Conflagrate, reapplying Immolate every 15 seconds, and Chaos Bolting alongside Dark Soul.

    Demonology has it's own equivalents of the same spells. You have Soul Fire, Shadow Bolt, Hand of Gul'dan and Corruption. All good right?

    This is where it starts to go wrong for me though. In the same gear, with appropriate glyphs/talents, that 4 spell rotation nets me 75k dps as Destro. The same rotation in Demo nets me only 50k, so fully 50% less damage for the same amount of effort. Ouch!

    To up your damage, you add Life Tap, Doom and Metamorphosis into the rotation, so now your at 7 spells versus Destro's 4. Worse, your having to manage Mana, Molten Core stacks (which can fall off unlike Burning Embers), Doom, Corruption and Demonic Fury. All at the same time!

    Destro only has to watch 2 things, while Demo players are keeping an eye on 5.

    When it comes to AoEing, Destro adds Brimstone and Rain of Fire into the mix, bringing them up to 6 spells. Demo adds in Hellfire, Void Ray, Immolation Aura (which functions differently to Hellfire) and Carrion Swarm. Bringing them up to 11.

    Demo has no easy way to DoT up all the targets, and has to apply two DoTs to to each mob as well.

    TLDR: Destro only uses 4 spells in a fight to DPS, with a total of 6 if AoEing. Demo seems to use 7 spells, 11 if AoEing. Destro only has to manage Immolation and Embers, Demo has to manage Mana, Molten Cores, Doom, Corruption and Demonic Fury.

    Demo players seem to need to work damn hard, but personally I do 75k Dummy DPS as Destro, and 65k with what I think is a perfect Demo rotation. I'm using a whole lot more abilities, but I'm actually doing less damage, and it doesn't feel very good. Have I missed something?

  2. #2
    you forgot a few spells in your destro rotation you need to keep up rain of fire even on single target bosses you need to havok on cd when there are multiple adds or bosses and you need to shadowburn alot if there are adds maximizing dps as destro is harder than affliction imo

    for demon you need the 100% crit trinket or it falls behind the other specs need them empowered dooms to generate more imps and fury
    and demon has been harder than most specs to master forever i doubt thats going to change anytime soon
    Last edited by xdoom; 2013-04-19 at 09:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    If you are using Destro well...keep using Destro. All three specs are viable and there is no reason to lose sleep over switching specs around just because there is a small theoretically difference.

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    You missed out keeping Rain of Fire up for destro on single target. You're now up to 5 spells, one of which needs to be targeted on the ground. You also forgot havoc in destro's cleave/aoe toolkit, so there's another mistake.

    You sound like someone who has never played demo before, and is obviously going to struggle. Yes, it probably is one of the hardest specs to get to grips with, it doesn't really play like anything else and has many things to manage other than dots. But give it time and you'll begin to develop the muscle memory just like with any spec.

    Also why do you feel the need to go demo on horridon anyway? Council I guess I can understand, but horridon just spec mannoroths fury and chaos bolt/shadowburn your heart out. In our last kill I did 46 incinerates compared to 42 chaos bolt, to put it into perspective for you.

    Honestly, I've played destro on every single fight this tier (we're working on hc ji-kun) and I'm doing just fine. I have demo as my offspec, but without the lei shen trinket it just doesn't cut the mustard against my destruction spec at the moment.

    If you don't want to / can't play demo, then don't bother.

  5. #5
    Destro isn't just about spamming those 4 spells (which there is more of anyways). It's heavily dependent on managing your procs with chaos bolts and using them at the right time (i know this is same to every DPS spec in the game, so even Demo - sometimes even more so like when you have UVoLS), which has an enormous impact on your DPS.

    So while Destro may net you 75k DPS with little to no effort, someone like Brusalk or Zum (or insert any other great Destro lock) could probably net like 100k in your gear if not more.

    But as others have said, just play what you are comfortable with and can get best results with.

  6. #6
    Thanks for the replies everyone! I appreciate it.

    I did forget about Havok and Shadowburn, which is weird because I use them on every fight. I think that tells you a lot about how easy Destro has it though. I guess I just feel like those spells are a 'bonus' and whenever I get a chance to use them, I'm really happy. But when I'm playing Demo and need to DoT up 4-5 targets, maintain Immo Aura, Carrion Swarm on CD, it just doesn't feel very good. It feels rough and unpolished.

    I would say the same about Soul Fire versus Chaos Bolt, it's interesting to me that small changes to an ability like a 30s timer, a high mana cost, and Meta/Caster interactions can take a mechanic I find very enjoyable as Destro and make it painful for me as Demo.

    From the replies I'm getting here, it doesn't seem like there is some great secret to unlocking Demonology. I guess it's just really complex and involved?

  7. #7
    You forgot Shadowburn as well.

  8. #8
    If you are worried about playing the best spec per fight, stick with destro for horridon.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FeralJim View Post
    Hey Warlocks,

    My Guild is starting to work on Horridon and Council, so I figured now was a good time for me to change from Destro to Demo. I've spent the last couple days trying to learn the spec, and I've made a couple unsettling observations. I'm hoping I've got it wrong here.

    Destro is dead easy, the rotation only uses 4 spells: Chaos Bolt, Incinerate, Conflagrate and Immolate.

    Conflagrate flows seamlessly into Incinerate spam, and Immolate doesn't feel like it interrupts what your doing. Your always casting, which feels good.

    Burning Embers last until you use them, and with 40 'bits' to 4 Embers, you don't often run the risk of being Ember capped before you want to spend them.

    Mana is never an issue if your on one target and gearing for haste.

    This means your just spamming Incinerate/Conflagrate, reapplying Immolate every 15 seconds, and Chaos Bolting alongside Dark Soul.

    Demonology has it's own equivalents of the same spells. You have Soul Fire, Shadow Bolt, Hand of Gul'dan and Corruption. All good right?

    This is where it starts to go wrong for me though. In the same gear, with appropriate glyphs/talents, that 4 spell rotation nets me 75k dps as Destro. The same rotation in Demo nets me only 50k, so fully 50% less damage for the same amount of effort. Ouch!

    To up your damage, you add Life Tap, Doom and Metamorphosis into the rotation, so now your at 7 spells versus Destro's 4. Worse, your having to manage Mana, Molten Core stacks (which can fall off unlike Burning Embers), Doom, Corruption and Demonic Fury. All at the same time!

    Destro only has to watch 2 things, while Demo players are keeping an eye on 5.

    When it comes to AoEing, Destro adds Brimstone and Rain of Fire into the mix, bringing them up to 6 spells. Demo adds in Hellfire, Void Ray, Immolation Aura (which functions differently to Hellfire) and Carrion Swarm. Bringing them up to 11.

    Demo has no easy way to DoT up all the targets, and has to apply two DoTs to to each mob as well.

    TLDR: Destro only uses 4 spells in a fight to DPS, with a total of 6 if AoEing. Demo seems to use 7 spells, 11 if AoEing. Destro only has to manage Immolation and Embers, Demo has to manage Mana, Molten Cores, Doom, Corruption and Demonic Fury.

    Demo players seem to need to work damn hard, but personally I do 75k Dummy DPS as Destro, and 65k with what I think is a perfect Demo rotation. I'm using a whole lot more abilities, but I'm actually doing less damage, and it doesn't feel very good. Have I missed something?
    You're oversimplifying Destro and overcomplicating Demo. Demo is much, much, much easier now than it's ever been. And it's okay for there to be a spec that involves more than the others. Demo isn't for you. Stick with destro if you aren't willing to learn demo.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  10. #10
    Destro is actually kind of difficult to line up procs and CDs to make CB hit hard. And without CB hitting hard you barely do any damage.
    The entire rotation hinges on CB so it's easy to mess up. It's also harder to wring out that extra bit of damage from it.

    I'm not saying its "omg so hard" but you're certainly oversimplifying it a LOT.

  11. #11
    as always easy to learn and hard to master

    do your stated destro rotation or do a better one with watching proccs and RoF etc. adds a lot of damage

    but i agree demo and affli are harder than destro (but destro is more fun^^)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eierdotter View Post
    but i agree demo and affli are harder than destro (but destro is more fun^^)
    This is personal preference, of course, but I struggle to see why or how Destruction would be more fun. Unless you just like shooting fire out of your hands. Simple pleasures. Anyway, it's simpler (Though not as simple as the OP would let us believe) and there's just not much to watch other than your procs. I mean, you -could- (And should, I know) try to put up Immolate with as many procs up as possible and all, but what the spec really comes down to is building and maintaining high embers for whenever the moment comes where it's time to dump them. Again, this is personal opinion and all, but keeping down RoF, Conflag charges and Immolate up isn't really very involving. Not in the same way that Demo's HoG-weaving into meta, DoT upkeep, proc + resource management is.

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    This is personal preference, of course, but I struggle to see why or how Destruction would be more fun.
    Like you said, personal preference. I like destruction primarily as when the stars (procs) align and you chain together huge chaos bolts it feels good. Sustained damage is also pretty decent, as destro I can burst decent enough in the opener, but I maintain that position as the fight continues.

    With demo, I love bursting ridiculously high in the opener, but I do feel weaker as the fight progresses and people catch up and I begin to drop down.

    It's all subjective, I prefer both specs to affliction currently after 6 months of it in t14, but what an individual finds fun is completely up to them.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    LOLWHAT.
    Demo too hard?
    PFFFF.
    I switched to demo from afflic and I can say it's a lot easier, you have powerful DoT and 2nd which isn't so powerful but easier to maintain, you have uber burst and you have stable dps.

  15. #15
    Demonology being as difficult as it is, is the whole reason I play it... Destruction is mindnumbingly boring, Affliction feels too stressful with all your focus being around keeping up your dots at maximum damage, Demonology feels perfect.

    I do wish it had more damage though, it should definitely beat Destruction considering Demonology is a lot harder... But don't nerf the rotation, if you can't handle Demonology stick to Affliction or Destruction, both of those are better at the moment anyway.

  16. #16
    The specs really aren't far enough apart for you to care hugely about bouncing between them.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Demonology being as difficult as it is, is the whole reason I play it... Destruction is mindnumbingly boring, Affliction feels too stressful with all your focus being around keeping up your dots at maximum damage, Demonology feels perfect.

    I do wish it had more damage though, it should definitely beat Destruction considering Demonology is a lot harder... But don't nerf the rotation, if you can't handle Demonology stick to Affliction or Destruction, both of those are better at the moment anyway.
    hehe i got it the other way around, i feel demonology is mindnumbingly boring, feels so slow after ive played destro for so long, destro is fast paced and you sometimes need to make split second decisions as to when and who you're using your embers/havoc on. demonology is just /yawn, and i feel its simplistic, just spreading your 100% crit proc dooms around to generate imps, meta weaving HoG and doom and proc/cd management which isnt hard at all. ive always loved affliction, as it has always been the closest ive felt to how ive envisioned a lock should be, and it is by far the simplest spec for me, it is as close to perfect as you can get, if it wasnt for the rather huge nerf it got at the start of t15 i would still have played it, the only problem afflic has, in my opinion, is that they are too reliant on soul shards to keep up dots through SB:SS and haunt, and RNG to regen soulshards.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-04-20 at 04:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Thanks for all the contributions folks, keep em coming!

    I'm really interested in the replies here, as the general consensus isn't what I expected it to be. People think I'm simplifying Destro too much (by not mentioning Rain of Fire, Shadowburn and Havok) and over complicating Demo (though I'm not sure how).

    Plenty of people have come in and said "if you don't like Demo, don't play it." or "there's no need for you to switch specs so why bother" but I would appreciate it if we didn't see any more of those replies. They are the obvious answer, and really don't help anyone. It's not very constructive.

    I feel like many of Demonologies spells hit weaker, for greater micro-management and longer cast times. Compare Corruption and Immolate, or Shadowbolt and Incinerate. To make up for this Demo is forced to use many more abilities, stance-dancing Hand of Gul'dan, maintaining Doom and combining all your procs/Meta together.

    I don't really feel like my assessment is wrong here, Demo players have to do more work. But that doesn't have to be a problem, as long as your able to perform.

    Can veteran Demo players give me an idea as to why I might be doing only 65k on dummies as Demo, and 75k as Destro? I'm clipping my HoG's with the 2nd stack, and then staying Meta for the duration, I never use Chaos Wave, and only burn Molten Core stacks as Caster. I wait till I'm 900+ Fury and pop out all my Imps, Dark Soul, and start slamming Touch of Chaos, while maintaining Doom and Corruption at all times. I'm using a Wrathguard and spamming Felstorm on CD.

    I'm working a damn sight harder at it than my Destro rotation (very close to twice as as hard) but doing almost 20% less damage.

    I can tell from the forum responses here that many people really enjoy Demo, main the spec, and don't have a problem with it's rotation. I am committed to mastering something other than just Destro, which comes pretty natural to me, and there isn't much cooler than a giant Green Demon.

  19. #19
    Maybe it is me, but I find that maximizing my damage is harder as Destro than Affliction. And Destro sure is more fun if you know how to play it.

    Demo is in a league of its own though, I agree. But it just takes longer to learn from scratch. Nothing hard to master. It all comes down to a few key spells in the end as well.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by FeralJim View Post
    Thanks for all the contributions folks, keep em coming!

    I'm really interested in the replies here, as the general consensus isn't what I expected it to be. People think I'm simplifying Destro too much (by not mentioning Rain of Fire, Shadowburn and Havok) and over complicating Demo (though I'm not sure how).

    Plenty of people have come in and said "if you don't like Demo, don't play it." or "there's no need for you to switch specs so why bother" but I would appreciate it if we didn't see any more of those replies. They are the obvious answer, and really don't help anyone. It's not very constructive.

    I feel like many of Demonologies spells hit weaker, for greater micro-management and longer cast times. Compare Corruption and Immolate, or Shadowbolt and Incinerate. To make up for this Demo is forced to use many more abilities, stance-dancing Hand of Gul'dan, maintaining Doom and combining all your procs/Meta together.

    I don't really feel like my assessment is wrong here, Demo players have to do more work. But that doesn't have to be a problem, as long as your able to perform.

    Can veteran Demo players give me an idea as to why I might be doing only 65k on dummies as Demo, and 75k as Destro? I'm clipping my HoG's with the 2nd stack, and then staying Meta for the duration, I never use Chaos Wave, and only burn Molten Core stacks as Caster. I wait till I'm 900+ Fury and pop out all my Imps, Dark Soul, and start slamming Touch of Chaos, while maintaining Doom and Corruption at all times. I'm using a Wrathguard and spamming Felstorm on CD.

    I'm working a damn sight harder at it than my Destro rotation (very close to twice as as hard) but doing almost 20% less damage.

    I can tell from the forum responses here that many people really enjoy Demo, main the spec, and don't have a problem with it's rotation. I am committed to mastering something other than just Destro, which comes pretty natural to me, and there isn't much cooler than a giant Green Demon.
    Well to begin with dummy DPS means absolutely nothing unless you have all raid buffs and all raid debuffs, as those benefit specs differently.


    Secondly, imagine for a second any given spec to have three separate numbers, Min, Average, and Max, which each correspond to how much DPS a given spec will output with Minimal, Average, and Maximum skill level at optimizing the spec. Imagine Max having a cap of 100% theoretical DPS, with Min and Average proportional to Max.

    Demo's Min, Average, and Max would be something like: 30, 60, 100
    Destro's Min, Average, and Max would be more like this: 60, 75, 100


    It's very easy to play Destro badly and still get decent results. It's still extremely difficult to get Max results however.
    On the same token, it's very easy to play Demo badly and get terrible results. However, you quickly catch up once you start to play Demo more effectively.

    You can think of Demo as having a very low base, but with lots and lots of headroom to grow as player skill increases.


    Your personal results may indicate (I'm not meaning anything negative here, just stating an observation based on my experience and your reported results) that you are playing somewhere around the average skill level with both specs. You can get better results as Destro, while putting in the same effort.



    ____________________________________________________

    Not sure why, but I see a post after mine in this thread, but clicking to page 2 brings me back to page one.

    And interestingly I posted this and it didn't auto-combine it into my last post on page 1.

    Some sort of ghost-post at work here I guess.
    ____________________________________________________


    And now it's gone after I deleted my test post.


    Weird....

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