Why does everyone treat the horde rebelion like it's an "internal matter"..

[Lucetia]

As for 'they can't make two raids' - that isn't what's being said, no-one is suggesting that (or not many, at least). We want a decent set of quests for both factions, like what we've gotten consistantly so far. How pissed off would Horde players be if 5.1 was just 'help Alduin stop Garrosh and gather resources for the Alliance behind his back'?

It could've been liked that, but the question is then why would the Horde feel the need to be involved in 5.2 and our story influence that which then further leads to what would be 5.3? Anduin setting up a rebelliance again Garrosh? Then you'd have the whole "Let the Alliance handle it then there's nothing happening to the Horde other than a dumb leader".

[Crym]

The rebellion is a Horde matter. Ousting Garrosh is an Azeroth matter. The Alliance may aid the rebellion, but you can't consider their involvement a "rebellion" because they were never under Garrosh.

As a rule of thumb, whenever you are about to click "post" and realize you've used the term "fanboy" in any of it's spellings it's better just to click "cancel". It's not that your post is terrible in content, but it just loses any credibility at that point.

[huth]

On the Horde side after you do the quest line and everything Vol'jin mentions that Lor'themar would probably be more than willing to help but he is currently tied up dealing with the Thunder King forces. To us the Thunder King is dead as we've personally killed him ourselves, but within game lore I think he's still considered "alive" for the moment and his forces are starting to dwindle. Using this logic the same could be said about Jaina as she is on the very same Isle herself dealing with the same issue and this explains why she isn't present. She isn't going to spread her forces thinly on the Isle and on the rebellion.

The Thunder King doesn't even need to be alive for that. It's not like armies simply turn to dust when you kill their leader most of the time, and the Mogu certainly aren't the kind of people that just give up.

Also, her name is Moira, daughter of that diamond statue in Old Ironforge.

[Faroth]

In-game reasoning is that neither side alone has the power to defeat Garrosh. If the Rebels go it alone, they all die. If the Alliance go it alone, they all die. If Rebels and Alliance go in together, Garrosh dies. Both Varian and Vol'jin knows this.

Full might of the Alliance was supposedly about equal to the full might of the Horde (despite them supposedly being underdogs, smaller population, etc).

Now a fraction of the Horde is almighty powerful enough to decimate the Alliance's full strength unless they ally with another fraction of the Horde? It doesn't make sense that the Alliance is written off that "oh they'd die if they tried alone." Allying with the rebellion is the smart thing to do to reduce casualties, but the Alliance has the resources to handle this on their own in a more drawn out, costly siege.

For that matter, laying siege to Orgrimmar would actually be as such:

Alliance brings in the Skyfire and their fleet.
Alliance stations siege engines, tanks, etc. outside Orgrimmar's front gates.
Alliance stations night elf and draenei forces with glaive throwers in Azshara.
Alliance keeps their forces out of range of Horde attacks from Orgrimmar.
Alliance waits.

Orgrimmar is in a rough, near desolate land. They don't have infinite food supplies in the city. Laying siege to the city would be a matter of attrition if done properly, but that would be a boring climax to the expansion.

For real world correlations, how often has a government funded and supported the rebellion against their enemy only for that rebellion to become an enemy later on? We won't all end with rainbows and kittens when it's over, though we'll likely be focusing on unifying our strength against the Legion, of course.

As for the "internal matter" debate...

Garrosh has been bullying the Horde for the last six months.
Garrosh, and the rebels that we are supporting, have been attacking and killing our people for the last 2-3 years.

The Alliance has more reason to hate Garrosh than the Horde rebels.

[Mehrunes]

Caging trolls... Assasinating Caine.. More or less turning goblins into slaves.. Not standing by Belfs when Jaina went insane...
All this is unexcusable acts of treason, murder and human(oid) trafficing.. For this, every Horde race have claims tothe killing blow of Garrosh...

Trolls brought it on themselves. And Cairne was not assassinated. He died in Mak'Gora. That he initiated himself, because he fell for Twilight Hammer's play and jumped to conclusions.

The Horde has plenty reason to want to kill him.

I still don't see the plenty of reasons for Horde to rebel. Tauren want to rebel why? Because he killed Cairne? Cairne's stupidity killed Cairne. But this is after all Darkspear rebellion. So let's see. Vol'Jin threatens his warchief with death and acts surprised when Garrosh kicks him and the rest of the Trolls out of Orgrimmar. Because war bad. And killing Cairne the Halfwit also bad. So Vol'Jin contacts Thrall, totally not disturbing him in his attempts to keep Azeroth in one piece and whines like a little bitch that evil Garrosh kicked noble Trolls out of Orgrimmar, while he should in fact pay Vol'Jin his weight in gold for his death threats. Move forward a few years. Garrosh arrives in Pandaria and one of the first things he sees is Vol'Jin already waiting for him in Krasarang. Even though his presence was not requested. Where Vol'Jin directly states that someone has to keep an eye on Garrosh. What is he? Self proclaimed Horde's board of directors?

And the Kor'Kron watching the Trolls... Wait, it's not the first race to be supervised by them. Forsaken were the first. And it wasn't even the decision of evil and tyrannical Garrosh, but the wisest and noblest Thrall the Green Jesus. And why? Because they were invaded by Burning Legion forces summoned by a traitor. During this invasion many Forsaken died and even their leader barely survived. And when Sylvanas finally arrived in Orgrimmar she pledged her loyalty to the Horde. Yes, that's of course a viable reason to supervise a Horde race with Kor'Kron. For years. But to do that to a race who disobeys the warchief on every step? A race whose leader threatened the warchief with death? Abomination! Treason! Tyranny!

Oh, and of course when these Kor'Kron are killed it's absolutely surprising and uncalled for that the Kor'Kron used harsher measures against the Darkspear. Totally. It couldn't have been predicted at all.

The Blood Elves are also great. An archaeologist team gets ambushed in Kun-Lai. Vile use of Blood Elven forces! But how many Orcs have died to establish Domination Point and to defend it from the constant Alliance's intrusions? And then when Garrosh sends a Mogu box to Silvermoon for analysis, it's Rommath orders the player to open the box. He admits most of it's defenses have been already disabled by the Blood Elves themselves. Even though he suspects something is inside and tells the player to be prepared. And there have been around eight Blood Elves in the room present. But noooooooo. The fact that a sha was set free for few minutes was a proper reason for Lor'Themar to go running to Varian, begging for mercy.

And Goblins.... Garrosh *gasp* doesn't pay them on time.

The Horde race with the most reasons to rebel are the Forsaken, with Garrosh planning to use them as living battering rams. His strategy in Gilneas would doom the race. And this is the race that has been completely ignored so far. While Blood Elves had few Reliquary members ambushed... Some of which have been saved. Lor'Themar probably lost more Blood Elves to get vengeance on Jaina than Garrosh did in whole 5.1 chain.

This whole rebellion is so forced it's not even funny. Blizzard is desperate to make the Horde hate Garrosh, but so far achieves it by making the Horde races a bunch of traitorous, whining douchebags.

My main is a troll shaman. I've been waiting four years to kill Garrosh after what he did to Vol'jin, my favorite character.

I understand why Vol'jin seeks alliance assistance, but I still feel that it should be the Horde that deal the final blow. Preferably Vol'jin, delivering on his promise to kill Garrosh when he leasts expects it.

Yes, because he will totally not expect this with Darkspears rebelling at his doorstep...

[Faroth]

And Goblins.... Garrosh *gasp* doesn't pay them on time.

He also didn't pay them the agreed amount. In a goblin's mind, they have more reason to turn on him than ANYONE!

[Maios]

I seriously doubt that we're immediately going from a few quests helping Vol'jin to the raid against Garrosh. If you think about it, it's just a little spy team that scouted out the rebellion and made initial contact with Vol'jin. There is probably lots to follow. Maybe we should wait until the entire story is revealed so we can speak in facts before we take a shit on it.

<-- Alliance fanboi too.

[Faroth]

I seriously doubt that we're immediately going from a few quests helping Vol'jin to the raid against Garrosh. If you think about it, it's just a little spy team that scouted out the rebellion and made initial contact with Vol'jin. There is probably lots to follow. Maybe we should wait until the entire story is revealed so we can speak in facts before we take a shit on it.

<-- Alliance fanboi too.

Alliance fans are generally skeptical due to historical experience, that's all. I think we're all hoping to be surprised.

[Deamon002]

Cause in his backyard he might be constructing something monstrous made out of sha and if the Alliance lets it continue for too long, they might pay for it with their very lives.

In other words, they have to fall back on the same tired old plot device and pull a superweapon out of their asses to paper over the holes in the awful writing.

[kwflange]

Orgrimmar is in a rough, near desolate land. They don't have infinite food supplies in the city. Laying siege to the city would be a matter of attrition if done properly, but that would be a boring climax to the expansion.

Mage portals to bring in supplies when needed.

[huth]

In other words, they have to fall back on the same tired old plot device and pull a superweapon out of their asses to paper over the holes in the awful writing.

Not out of their asses. We already know that Garrosh has some quite potent stuff in his hands. Problem is, we don't know what.

[Deleted]

I seriously doubt that we're immediately going from a few quests helping Vol'jin to the raid against Garrosh. If you think about it, it's just a little spy team that scouted out the rebellion and made initial contact with Vol'jin. There is probably lots to follow. Maybe we should wait until the entire story is revealed so we can speak in facts before we take a shit on it.

<-- Alliance fanboi too.

Reasonable, but we have to have in mind that what you doubt could actually happen.

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 05:43 PM ----------

In other words, they have to fall back on the same tired old plot device and pull a superweapon out of their asses to paper over the holes in the awful writing.

Pretty much.

[Darmalus]

Full might of the Alliance was supposedly about equal to the full might of the Horde (despite them supposedly being underdogs, smaller population, etc).

Of course it doesn't make any god damned sense! That's what pisses me off so much. Factions increase and decrease in power at Blizzard's whim. If the game made any sense, the entire Horde plotline would revolve around their desperate struggle against the centaur and quillboar while the Alliance ignored them as an insignificant gnat,

[Deleted]

Horde rebellion IS an internal matter. I don't see "alliance" word in there. What are you rebelling against? Garrosh?

[Dreknar20]

Full might of the Alliance was supposedly about equal to the full might of the Horde (despite them supposedly being underdogs, smaller population, etc)..

"numbers alone confer no advantage" - Sun Tzu

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 06:09 PM ----------

I still don't see the plenty of reasons for Horde to rebel. .

Its all perspective.

The acts themselves may not neccecarily be evil, but people say so because he is the one doing so.
You can see exmaples of this everywhere, Azeroth and Earth.
Two people can do the same exact thing, yet people will claim one is evil and the other isnt. It all depends who side who is on.

[StationaryHawk]

The rebel faction of the Horde is, obviously, an internal matter, since they're formed by purely Horde forces.

The actual Siege of Orgrimmar, however, is definitely not, seeing as both the rebels and the Alliance have reasons for wanting Garrosh gone. Neither could accomplish that goal (or at least not as efficiently) without the other.

In other words, they have to fall back on the same tired old plot device and pull a superweapon out of their asses to paper over the holes in the awful writing.

Because the past two patches (and the patch to come) haven't been hinting at/blatantly pointing out that Garrosh has been searching for magical items to strengthen his forces.

[Florena]

The factions were about equal. But consider that Orgimmar is a fortress city. Sieging it will not be easy. Not saying it can't be done, but even with siege weapons Hellscream has the advantage there. Considering what happened LAST TIME the Alliance tried invading Org I think helping the Darkspear clear a landing for us and thinning kor'kron numbers is a smart thing to be doing. Garrosh's plans have proven to be very effective, even if overly reliant on super weapons.

[skrump]

Okay argument aside here's why: Because it should be a strictly internal affair.

But here's why it isn't: Resources and Blizz not wanting to make two separate raids. Which is understandable.

But there you have it, that's why.

You do realize that Garrosh has repeatedly shit on the alliance throughout the expansion and done everything to instigate an invasion

And I am sure you also realize that it would be in the alliances best interest to sit back and let the horde kill each other before jumping into the mix and declaring complete victory for themselves.

Furthermore this expansions focus was supposed to be about the war between the horde/alliance and not about the inner turmoils of the horde.

[Deleted]

Full might of the Alliance was supposedly about equal to the full might of the Horde (despite them supposedly being underdogs, smaller population, etc).

Smaller populations don't mean shit to the Horde. They either excell in combat far above any Alliance fighters or they fight dirty.

The plague used by the Forsaken? Good luck fighting that with your superior numbers. You will just make it easy for them.
The Tauren and Orcs? Good luck fighting them even if you do outnumber them 3 to 1. They are much more skilled warriors.

If the Horde actually works together, they can stomp the Alliance without much competition.

It has been that way since Warcraft 1. Sacking of Stormwind? They worked together. Warcraft 2 almost saw total Horde victory on the doorsteps of Lordaeron, but then they started fighting themselves when Gul'dan pulled back a portion of the army to search for the Tomb of Sargeras, so the Alliance had a shot to crawl back to their feet and eventually win. Warcraft 3 saw the Horde at their weakest though, like the Alliance before it they had to crawl back on their feet, but as time progressed they've gotten to the strength of the past again.

[Dreknar20]

Furthermore this expansions focus was supposed to be about the war between the horde/alliance and not about the inner turmoils of the horde.

too bad Horde players spend more time killing themselves than killing Alliance

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 06:36 PM ----------

The Tauren and Orcs? Good luck fighting them even if you do outnumber them 3 to 1. They are much more skilled warriors.

Its not so much skill, more brute strength and mass