Tortos 10N Aggro Problem

[Rabbia73]

Our guild has been through a bit of a time in recent weeks. Our MT retired, but we got our Pally to go Prot and geared him up. Since then there have been some strat stuggles and some non-attendances resulting in bad PUG pickups, so morale is a bit low.

Anyway I'd really appreciate any advice you guys might have on this issue:

Our guild is Murder Train, Blackrock Server US. The tank in question is the Pally - Opalyn. I can't post logs at this point unfortunately, as I'm sure that would shed a lot of light on its own.

I am Fury and keep pulling aggro off the Prot tank for reason(s) unknown. This doesn't happen with our Brewmaster MT. The thing is, it SEEMS to only happen right after Tortos does his quake stomp. It does not happen on the pull or anything similar. It happens well into the fight. It HAS happened BOTH when we tried the Pally on the boss AND on bats. It is also immediate insta-death. One second I'm fine on the threat meter, next second dead and wipe almost certain, as we are having enough trouble as it is. But for the life of me I can't figure out what is causing this, as from all I've read it doesn't seem as though the aggro table is somehow reset after a stomp.

The only thing I can add is that the Pally tank respecced from one raid week to another, from dam mitigation to more haste gemming. But I really don't think this is related, as it has happened both raid weeks in question. Approx. ten times overall. It's got to the point where I'd just stop attacking just before a stomp, then wait a relatively lengthy period before resuming attack. Obviously this isn't ideal, given the bats for example need to go down ASAP.

Tks for any help. It's been driving me a bit crazy on top of everything else, including GM/RL going off about threat meters....

[Deleted]

Possible the pally is going out of melee range of the boss to try and deal with rockfalls and so tortos defaults to attacking you instead? Only thing that seems likely to me.

[Rabbia73]

Thanks for the suggestion, seriously.

I've thought about that as well. In fact that is what I'd thought, UNTIL it then also happened on bats, and it was drain life that got me.

So buggered if I know, basically. Unless he's also running off from bats? But he'd still have aggro. Well, he should at least.

I also try to stay v close to him (the tank), to try and reduce the area of the rockfalls. If that makes any difference here.

[celinamuna]

Make sure you're paladin isn't using BoP / DS / Salv.

[Dawnrage]

It honestly just sounds like threat is an issue to me. There's many bats so you can't really look at omen for all of them. You are probably grabbing aggro on a few of them from what it sounds like because your paladin's threat isn't good on them all.

[Rabbia73]

Hmm well okay I'll definitely make an enquiry.

Never having run a Pally, what makes you say this?

Tks.

[Deleted]

Bats are a slightly different scenario, I know the tanks in my raidgroup still need a little time to pick them up properly, even with an MD, it may be that the pally is just unused to havign to grab a large amount of adds in a short amount of time? Im unsure of prot pallys snap threat.

[Sonnillon]

A very dumb question, but are you maybe in defensive chance by accident (some macro what triggers it or IDK), so you could reduce damage? We have prot. paladin tanking as well and usually I (the bat tank) get the aggro from boss, if I decide to cleave the bats and nuke boss on side. The paladin's healing aggro should be alone enough to clue anything to him.

As you see we have warrior as well DPS and the second tanks (me) is behind Tortos tank always. He usually dies when he has his def. stance on. But it could be due to you getting some decent hit in the moment your paladin moves away from Tortos or is not meleeing him and that gets you the aggro?

EDIT: speaking of bats, you will have to let your tank hit them once (all of them) before you can nuke them. Even rogues trix still might get rogue the aggro off bats.

[Deja Thoris]

I think you need to check the logs in the 4 seconds or so before it happens to see if you can suss it out there.

I can only think its BoP / salv or HoP or something. As the tortos tank I generate so much threat that I can pull the bats off the other tank if I just look at them funny. The fact that someone can pull off a tank in these circumstances means something funky is happening somewhere.

You called it a dam haste build btw. I think you meant to call it a "dam awesome haste build". :P

[Blackmist]

The bats are a pain. Wait a few seconds before attacking as our pally can't grab snap aggro on them either. Back in TBC pallies were the only tank with massive AoE threat, and now it's almost reversed. Ours grabs them, then calls for DPS. Works well.

As for the boss, he's probably moving out of range.

Or something stupid like not using RF or he's HoPing himself. These would show up on other bosses though.

[Rabbia73]

I think you need to check the logs in the 4 seconds or so before it happens to see if you can suss it out there.

I can only think its BoP / salv or HoP or something. As the tortos tank I generate so much threat that I can pull the bats off the other tank if I just look at them funny. The fact that someone can pull off a tank in these circumstances means something funky is happening somewhere.

You called it a dam haste build btw. I think you meant to call it a "dam awesome haste build". :P

LOL I meant DAMAGE mitigation of course, no damn haste at all - should have used a '.' to indicate the abbreviation. Yes apparently it's good for Pallys, that build and I encouraged him to make the change.

You're right about the logs of course. Thank you.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

It would be nice if your guild had some logs for tortos up, only ones I see on WoL go up to council. If your paladin is using Divine Shield or Hand of Protection on himself they need to put it into a cast/cancelaura macro so they can clear the invuln by hitting the button a second time.

The macros I use for it

#showtooltip
/cast Divine Shield
/cancelaura Divine Shield


#showtooltip
/cast Hand of Protection
/cancelaura Hand of Protection

[Rabbia73]

A very dumb question, but are you maybe in defensive chance by accident (some macro what triggers it or IDK), so you could reduce damage? We have prot. paladin tanking as well and usually I (the bat tank) get the aggro from boss, if I decide to cleave the bats and nuke boss on side. The paladin's healing aggro should be alone enough to clue anything to him.

As you see we have warrior as well DPS and the second tanks (me) is behind Tortos tank always. He usually dies when he has his def. stance on. But it could be due to you getting some decent hit in the moment your paladin moves away from Tortos or is not meleeing him and that gets you the aggro?

EDIT: speaking of bats, you will have to let your tank hit them once (all of them) before you can nuke them. Even rogues trix still might get rogue the aggro off bats.

Sonn I have tried to post several times to this (plus a few above and now below) but when I do it seems to take everything I've posted all in one hit, so much is redundant. If that happens again, I'll leave it as I can't type it all again.

Anyway:

I didn't think yours was a dumb question at all, as it was the first thing I thought of myself. I skipped Cata and since I came back, for some reason I HAVE switched to Defensive Stance (completely unintentionally) quite a number of times. I have no idea what causes it, assume it is some keybind to change stances or something that I am hitting accidently but I haven't been able to locate it so as to remove it.

BUT, I don't think that was the problem here, as I've looked (nearly) every time to my stance bar immediately this happens, and I've still been in Battle Stance.

As for the rest - good suggestions all. But I've been giving him quite a bit of time on the bats before attacking, PLUS it's this apparent convergence with stomp. Plus it's happened quite frequently. Plus on boss, as I said. Sure it could have been for different causes.

The RL hasn't been as diligent on saving logs as he should be in the last couple of weeks I think, but I'll have to remind him.

Cheers to all.

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 07:40 PM ----------

These Pally specific responses are v helpful btw, as I don't have a clue about Pallys, never having rolled one or looked into them much apart from buffs or whatever.

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 07:42 PM ----------

I don't know why my posts are being added like this.

Maybe I'm in Defensive Stance here for god's sake. (JK)

[Deleted]

We do it like this and it made bats very easy to kill and to pick up for the "bat"tank.

Most of the time the reason why u get bats all over the place is healing aggro. First of all let ur pala tank the boss and let him use his 3 holy power to give himself a big self heal when the bats are spawned so he will get aggro from all of the bats. The "bat" tank can now easy pick up all the bats before they are gonna hit ur pala tank that is hitting the boss. Stack the bats up on the place where ur pala and ur melee is standing and aoe them down.

About the quake stomp if u also kick a shell into the stacked bats there are no bats alive on the moment the boss does his stomp.

Hope this will help, and trust me this fight is cake like this!

[TwentyTwelve]

Prot pally speaking here... Make sure the pallly tank is going into haste + mastery, instead of dodge + parry (as this is a survival increase AND threat boost)
more onto the fight though...
Make sure your pally is playing with an aoe setup if bat tanking, (althought pallys should 1 tank the boss apprently, i haven't due to my old GM but its a lot easier if done right)
However assuming you are still 2 tanking, and pallys on bats have him spec into "lights hammer" and throw it on the ground near where they spawn, its easily viewable before they land/nuke someone, he could also take `holy prism` over `lights hammer` and get agro off majority of them by using holy prism on himself near the bats for an aoe attack, that + an aoe like holy wrath should be enough threat, i literally just holy wrath / hammer them once, and run em to the boss. Again as people said, make sure he isnt using anything that resets threat: salvation, bubble, hand of protection, warlock portal (just adding in for fun xD)...

Also have the pally spec into battle healer, i don't use it but it definantly will help him if hes having agro issues on bats, when solo tanking, the boss will be giving him insane vengance which means insane threat off battle healer, but even when two tanking, if he times it, so he uses a big hit like `shield of the righteous` after a stone breath, the bats will get agroed by him, nothing insane but it'll still help.

[Deleted]

Bats shouldn't ever be alive post stomp, so I'd suggest this: Put him on bats, have a hunter/rogue tricks him, burn them down.

When the boss it can only be 2(3) issues.

1. BoP/salv @ stomp on himself
2. Going out of melee range
3. Defensive stance/you're taunting somehow.

With the absence of enough info to proceed, I'd say just put him on bats and ensure they die before each stomp. (also as a warrior you have no need to ever be near those bats)

[Ninotchka]

I see your paladin is running Glyph of the Battle Healer, but (dumb question) is he using Seal of Insight? I (shameful confession) wiped the raid a couple weeks back when I did a Sha run just before raid time, got mind controlled and I didn't notice that the stupid thing swapped my seal. Battle Healer produces so much healing threat if you have the right seal, but if you don't you can be a bit squishy.

[jinsu]

if he is just tanking the bats, make sure he tanks tortos at the start before the first set to build vengeance then swap when they come down and he shouldn't have any issue at all after that.

[Odina]

Sent a PM with some more personal info but to be honest the bet way any one can help is with WOL. I looked up your guild and the last report was from April 11th Without a WOL unfortunatly there is really nothign more than speculation that we can help with! I woudl sugest starting to log it yourself if no one else is regularly doing it so you can get some clear and usefull info

[Cirque]

It would be nice if your guild had some logs for tortos up, only ones I see on WoL go up to council. If your paladin is using Divine Shield or Hand of Protection on himself they need to put it into a cast/cancelaura macro so they can clear the invuln by hitting the button a second time.

The macros I use for it

#showtooltip
/cast Divine Shield
/cancelaura Divine Shield


#showtooltip
/cast Hand of Protection
/cancelaura Hand of Protection

This was awhile ago for me but I used to have that in my main attack when I played prot, whatever that was (crusader strike possibly), so that even when a healer bopped me I'd not be screwed for a few seconds before I realized.

Anyway a lot of good suggestions as to what the reason could be. I also think he's not in melee range of tortos, and as for the bats, well, as a new tank I'd not be surprised if he's a bit inexperienced in efficiently picking up so many mobs as someone stated, furthermore fury threat can really be out of control at times. I'd suggest you wait a bit before going on bats see if that makes a difference.

That said, logging is really the easiest thing ever. Worldoflogs.com, make some account, run the live client, and in your WOW just type /combatlog . Sync the live client and it'll automatically upload while you play. When you relog, your logging will be stopped automatically. You can also manually upload the combatlog file.