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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, your problem is that other people don't want what you want them to want.

    Is it ok that we ignore what you want? Or does that only work in one direction?
    I don't have a problem, I have an observation.

    Lets pick an easy one:

    I (personally) won't ever have more than 1 alt at 90 in this expansion, because I'm not willing to put the time in.

    Do I:
    a) accept the fact that I'm not willing to put in the effort, or
    b) complain on the forums that leveling takes too long?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    From where I sit, the problem with most casual players is that they are unwilling to accept the fact that there are elements of the game that might require more effort / time than they're willing to put in, so consistently demand that nearly all things be modified to suit them.
    Really? Care to quote a source for this? Because, honestly, from where I am standing, MOST casual players are nothing like what you describe. You seem to be describing a small group of wannabe hardcores.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    For them, subscription should equal access AND success. That's the problem.
    I am a casual. My guild is casual (in the literal sense of the word, as opposed to those think that spending "only" 15 hours a week raiding to be 5/13H is casual). What we want is content that is challenging but accessible to us, given our level of skill, experience and time available to spend on the game.

    I am personally quite happy that there is harder content, in the game, with better rewards, for people who have the time (in my case specifically the schedule - I spend enough time playing, but not the right times :P) to commit to a more serious group. Would I like to be able raid heroic current content successfully? Of course. But I am under no illusion that I have the time to do so successfully. So I will settle for LFR, and wait for my guild to progress slowly through the content that currently represents a challenge for us collectively as a group. And I am quite happy with the rewards I get.

    And quite frankly if someone random hardcore player with a 540 ilevel average and every heroic mount, title and raid achievement in the game is offended by relatively mediocre (by comparison) set of rewards, I could give two hoots.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Really? Care to quote a source for this?
    Sure.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/2...al-Discussions
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/984270/

    long term observation is helpful in drawing a conclusion.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  4. #24
    One of "these" threads.

    I've played this game since what a few weeks of release? In the "old days" you had to form groups and get to those locations. It took a while to do anything leveling took longer, dungeons took longer gearing took longer. It was ironically a very casual game then. People playing other MMOs at the time were shocked at how "easy" wow was compared to other games. I loved it then and I enjoy it now. I do have rose tinted goggles for vanilla over the other expacs (it had MORE bad points than god but it was a hotly awaited game for me and I enjoyed exploring the place with my mates who only a few play with now) but I do know that the later expacs (on a whole) improved the game.

    Fast forward to now. We have 3 difficulty modes. For dungeons it is Normal Heroic and Challenge. The first two you can go into either via the instance portal or the LFD tool, the last one you can only get via the instance portal.

    For raiding we have LFR - Normal - Heroic. The first one being accessed via the LFR tool and its an easy difficulty. Normal mode and heroic require you to get to the instance with your raid group to defeat the foes.

    Games for over 20+ years have had difficulty settings. Why is wow any different. Appeal to as large a userbase as you can is any good business idea.

  5. #25
    Warchief Szemere's Avatar
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    It's the fact that features of the game, that are not supposed to be targeted at casual players, get changed to cater to more casual players.

    Happily this hasn't been happening for a while already, but the Dragon Soul nerfs that came in blindly every 3-4 weeks at some point, that affected Heroic raiders, was definitely one of those things.
    Ex-GM and Raidleader of the MoX Purple Kittens Raidteam on Twisting Nether (formerly Grim Batol), RIP, Winter 2010 - Spring 2013.
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  6. #26
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    It's good to appeal to the casual player. The balance is always having something for the hardcore player who's practically plugged into the game all day so they don't feel like they "finished the game" too soon before the next patch.

    HOWEVER, there are valid reasons to oppose some of the changes that people mistakenly say are because of "the appeal to casuals" that really aren't.

    1. Cross-server everything - Yes, this system is great for low population server players. It would have been fine if they'd have implemented cross-server community tools to go with them (battlegroup friends lists, guilds, etc... etc...) but they didn't. What we have now is every chance to bump into tons of other players... that we can not interact with outside the zone we happened to run into them on unless we are willing to make them a RealID friend. These people are taking the place of players who we actually COULD friend or invite to a guild in our runs.

    2. Almost all raid gear available to people grinding small group content - To an extent this was good for the casual player. It allowed players to gear up without depending on runs through content people didn't want to do anymore which is great for a player who's schedule isn't consistent enough to have a team willing to stick with them on content they need (and everyone else has already done to death). It was great for alts for the same reason. With that said it was still a pretty long grind, which doesn't work well if you're actually playing casually.

    Unfortunately, the current LFR system is still easy and grindy. A truly casual player probably needs group content to be easier because they won't be running with a consistent team (so even if the mechanics are easy for them they'll likely be running with at least a few idiots every time). However, what they want more than anything is to beat the content and move on. A casual player only gets a little time to play every day, and they don't want to spend it all running the same boss they've done 10+ times before for a drop (something a hardcore player has no problem doing) so they can some day do something interesting and new.

    3. Prevalence of dailies - Let's face it, if you're logging on every day to do quests you're sick to death of because of the reward you're not casual. I came to that realization when I was doing the ToC dailies for the 100th time because I wanted to get all the pets and mounts. If you religiously do something you don't enjoy just because you will eventually get something you want you're some kind of hardcore. Granted, not a hardcore raider, but you're disciplined and committed beyond the average player.

    Casual players are likely to do dailies, because solo content allows for a more flexible schedule, but the way people who get the most out of dailies do them, it's a schedule and commitment.

  7. #27
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Ugh... You don't seem to understand what the definition of casual is.
    Since everyone has their own definition of the word to suit their own purposes, let's start with the Merriam Webster dictionary definition shall we?

    (1) : feeling or showing little concern : nonchalant
    (2) : lacking a high degree of interest or devotion
    (3) : done without serious intent or commitment
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Casual: Someone who doesn't spend more than four hours a day playing games.
    Hardcore: Someone who spends most of their day playing games.
    Based on the above definition, I don't believe that the term casual can be defined by the amount of time one spends playing WoW. It is about the player's approach and effort put in.

    True - there is generally a strong correlation between time spent playing the game and effort put in, for example, you can't be a hardcore player if you only spend 3 hours a week playing. But it is quite possible to spend 6 hours a day playing and never participate at a competitive level in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Casual does NOT mean bad player.
    Hardcore does NOT mean good player.
    Agreed. But it should be acknowledged that in order to become an exceptional player requires a high level of effort and commitment which prevents casual players from becoming expceptional.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    I know several people who don't play much, but they are amazing at video games.
    I suspect most of these individuals are either lying about how much effort and practice time they put into their gaming while others are not watching, or they are not nearly as amazing as you think they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    I know several other people who play so much they don't come out of their rooms, but they suck so bad at gaming...
    For the most part this is because they don't care to put in any effort.

    Playing WoW is a skill. And like any skill it can be improved with directed effort. It's that simple. Sure, some people will improve faster than others, and some people will enjoy the effort which makes improving a lot easier for them but the fact remains: You don't get good at something like WoW without putting in a lot of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Is making the game more casual friendly bad? HELL NO! Is dumbing down the game so much my two year old can beat it bad? HELL YES!
    Seriously, the game is not that dumbed down. Not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    But, this is an MMORPG... Meaning that Blizzard will NEVER make the game good for casuals. They will, however, dumb down the gameplay so that anyone can play. They want you to spend time playing the game, and they don't care how easy it gets as long as people are playing.
    That is a ridiculous statement. Sorry, but it can't simply go unanswered. Being an MMORPG they want to have a broad spectrum of content that will have something that appeals to almost everyone, from the most casual bads, to the most hardcore elite players out there, and everything in between, including casuals.

    Just because 8 guilds have managed to down the hardest boss in the game after 2 months doesn't make the game easy by any definition of the word. But by the same token, just because Heroic Lei Shen, or Ra Den are well out reach for a casual like me (at least while they remain current content) does not mean that the game is not good for me.

    Trying to tune every aspect of a game like WoW to every player is impossible. Instead of focussing on the aspects of the game designed or tuned for other players, look at what has been provided for you and focus on that instead.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pretenses View Post
    I was reading the thread about WotLK, and it got me to thinking.

    Most of the complaints I read about the game are about how the game is too easy, or that it's directed at the 'casual' player. Why? I just don't get it.

    I've been playing since vanilla, though I didn't play too much in BC, and played a lot in WotLK, and since I've been doing the cycle a lot of us are used to. Play, feels grindy after a few months, retire, come back a few months later.

    I don't understand why everyone complains about how "easy" it is, or how "faceroll" certain things are, and really, the "end of the sense of community" drives me insane. WoW isn't worse off than it was pre WotLK (when a lot of this started happening). Do you remember how bad it sucked having to get a group together to do a dungeon? Do you remember how hard it would be to get a spot in a raid guild, or hell, even get a raid team together? It wasn't impossible, but it definitely was harder than it is, and I distinctly recall many people complaining about it.

    As for the sense of community, we've always had little shits in the community, with their heads up their asses. It'll never change. WoW brings out the arrogance in certain people. It's still definitely possible to find a guild with good, friendly people. If you choose to join a hardcore raiding guild where noone talks, well that's your problem isn't it?

    Really, what's so wrong with the direction WoW has been going in for the last 3 xpacks?

    Has a dpser it took me less time to find a group in TBC them in during WOTLK and CATA. (unsub pre-MOP)

    Finding a decent raiding guild was more difficult them ever. Everyone was doing the newest content, you couldn't filter the bad guilds from the good guilds to apply too.
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
    Casual - This is a player that will let everything else take priority over wow.
    Hardcore - This is a player that is fine with putting things on hold while he's on wow.
    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
    Casual/Hardcore - Measure of Time

  9. #29
    Casual-focus has torn WoW's essence apart and raped the leftovers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  10. #30
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Sure.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/2...al-Discussions
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/984270/

    long term observation is helpful in drawing a conclusion.
    You just lost all credibility. Sorry.

    I would argue that your "long term observation" is biased by your opinion, thereby skewing your interpretation of what is posted on those forums to fit your opinion. In other words, you take that which see to support your opinion, and ignore anything contrary.

    If you had said:

    From where I sit, the problem with some casual players is that they are unwilling to accept the fact that there are elements of the game that might require more effort / time than they're willing to put in, so consistently demand that nearly all things be modified to suit them.
    then I would agree with you.

    But I don't believe you have any real basis to assume that this is an attitude representative of any kind of majority (ie "most") of the casual player base. Certainly, as a casual player myself, who plays with other casuals, I have seldom observed this phenomenon myself.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    Casual-focus has torn WoW's essence apart and raped the leftovers.
    That's nice...

    Blueberries are disgusting and criminal, and should be banned!

    Look; if you're not going to explain your opinion, why on earth would you share it?

  12. #32
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    For me personally, Wow felt the most casual during TBC.
    I never felt like I HAD TO do this now, no matter what it was. I had fun doing what I did. And it did not really feel as pressured onto me.
    Oddly enough, that even counts in the dungeons. It's a lot more of a pressured grind feel to blast through a dungeon with chain pulls and what not, than it felt to me back in BC when a dungeon too a bit of time and coordination to get through. That time was often accompanied with chit chatting with the group. It never felt like a grind, and a lot more like an actual game played.

    An analogy I find for myself with card games... When I play a card game that completes a game rather fast within a few minutes, then I get bored and annoyed from the repetition rather sooner. When I play one where it takes some time to complete a game, then I can play it for hours on end.

    And that is transportable onto WoW today. Everything is aimed for speed. No time taken. That loses the character of being a game, and gets more and more into the direction of a factory line where you work by the piece. Sorry, I got a fulfilling job. I wanna relax when I play. That's the sole reason I play a game. To relax and chill from my daily chores.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  13. #33
    Nothing because most gamers are casuel so its a great buisness disision tho for the people who are more hardcore its really anoying there should be more for hardcore players to.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Szemere View Post
    It's the fact that features of the game, that are not supposed to be targeted at casual players, get changed to cater to more casual players.

    Happily this hasn't been happening for a while already, but the Dragon Soul nerfs that came in blindly every 3-4 weeks at some point, that affected Heroic raiders, was definitely one of those things.
    I am quite glad heroic nerfs have not been really seen yet. I think they learned a little bit from it. Keep LFR at its current level (i've heard the later boss do show some more wipes which is fine) normals are that happy go between. Keep heroic raiding difficult. It is aimed at people who either A) can and will compete and clear it B) Aspire to clear it and will at least try it out.

    I don't mind them tuning it a bit to ensure no encounter is too easy OR too hard. But flat out nerfing it via buffing players over and over was a bit extreme.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretenses View Post

    I don't understand why everyone complains about how "easy" it is, or how "faceroll" certain things are, and really, the "end of the sense of community" drives me insane. WoW isn't worse off than it was pre WotLK (when a lot of this started happening). Do you remember how bad it sucked having to get a group together to do a dungeon? Do you remember how hard it would be to get a spot in a raid guild, or hell, even get a raid team together? It wasn't impossible, but it definitely was harder than it is, and I distinctly recall many people complaining about it.

    Simply put you are delusional. Wrath was the EASIEST expac to pug a raid. At the height of WOTLK raiding I easily pugged each and every alt through content. With both ten and twentyfive options open there was never a lack of things to do. But then we make shared lockouts to keep the smarter ten man players from leveraging 25gear against 10 progression, followed by tuning 25 content to be easier than 10 in order to keep the prestigious 25 man guilds together. It has just been a string of bad moves after one another.





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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Minetor View Post
    Nothing because most gamers are casuel so its a great buisness disision tho for the people who are more hardcore its really anoying there should be more for hardcore players to.
    There are hardmode raids, challenge mode dungeons and rated battlegrounds/arena.

    It's not like there's even a definite divide between the two. It's not like there's a straight line between 'Hardcore' and 'Casual' content, and casuals can get into hardcore content by... Playing more. Alternatively, hardcore gamers can partake in any 'casual' activity without difficulty, even being in a position of luxury when doing so (having much better gear).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I (personally) won't ever have more than 1 alt at 90 in this expansion, because I'm not willing to put the time in.

    Do I:
    a) accept the fact that I'm not willing to put in the effort, or
    b) complain on the forums that leveling takes too long?
    But what if, B is a legitimate complaint ? The biggest flaw I see with many of these kind of arguments starts with "I don't find leveling boring, thus anyone who does is a lazy bum". Sometimes I have to honestly question people who just go blindly with "That's how MMORPGSs are suppose to be" Says who ? Who says the way we play today is the only correct way ?

    I personally think MMOs as a whole are on the way out. Some of you people will claim it's the great decline of civilization because people don't want to work in their video games! I ask you, to take a step back, try to remove your ego and pride for a minute and honestly question yourself. Is a video game suppose to be a job, and if you treat a video game like a job, why do you expect others too ? And why are they lazy bums because they don't ? Try to take a open honest look and ask if maybe it's you that has it wrong and not them.

    I know one of the answer is going to be "because X is soooooo easy" Easy for you, doesn't mean easy for them. Easy also doesn't mean fun. I hate leveling, it's probably the most retarded aspect of the game (this is coming from someone with nine 90s). Leveling IS EASY...leveling is NOT fun (not to me, I know others love it). Let me pay $10 to have a instant 90 and I'm all over it.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-22 at 03:00 PM.

  18. #38
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    This i sjust my opinion and I know others wont share it and I'm fine with that and actually happy there are different opinions on this subject... how borring would it be if we all agreed :P

    From a casual raider POV I believe the game is in a really REALLY good place right now! I have LFR for the slots that I need to get upgrades in and it also doubles as the perfect "OMG I got 2 extra hours of unexpected gamming time becuase the wife took off with the baby woohooo". Now no need to worry about trying to put togethere a group, no sitting for 2 hours in /2 LFM just que up and do some farming, dailies, or shenanigans while I wait for LFR.

    Then on raid night I get to go in and face challenging content that I can overcome with my group in a decent amount of time! Thus far this tier we havent put much over 15 wiped in on any boss before getting a kill and have sat at about 1 progress kill per week on a 1night 4 hour riad scheduel. To me this is the perfect balance point as it gives us a new challenge each week while providing farm bosses to get gear to make each weeks farm faster,cleaner, simpler!

    As we CHOOSE to raid 4 hours a week we also know we wont clear the place everyweek! So starting this week we are locking the raid out to get some progress kills. We are sacrafising gear for a bit more progress... this is one of the main issues I see with many other "casual" players... they want all the gear, all teh progress, yet no sacraphise or decision making. They see hardcores clear it in a week and want that too... no just no you want that then put in THAT time!

    WOW appeals to the casual player just fine IMO...what it does not cater to however is the player that does not want to learn or make decisions like progress > gear this week cuz we dont raid enough!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 03:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I personally think MMOs as a whole are on the way out. Some of you people will claim it's the great decline of civilization because people don't want to work in their video games! I ask you, to take a step back, try to remove your ego and pride for a minute and honestly question yourself. Is a video game suppose to be a job, and if you treat a video game like a job, why do you expect others too ? And why are they lazy bums because they don't ? Try to take a open honest look and ask if maybe it's you that has it wrong and not them.
    Let me ask you this then.

    If you know the general mentality around MMO's are grinding and taking time to get to max level why would you choose to play a game like that if you don't like that kind of gaming? Why would you play that game and then try and change it to meet your likes rather than finding another style of game while leaving the MMO the way it is so those that enjoy it that way can? What may seem like a "job" style of gaming to you is an immersed escape from reality for others that they love!

    To ask some one to be open minded and then state "maybe it's you that has it wrong and not them" is just mind blowing!

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    But what if, B is a legitimate complaint ? The biggest flaw I see with many of these kind of arguments starts with "I don't find leveling boring, thus anyone who does is a lazy bum". Sometimes I have to honestly question people who just go blindly with "That's how MMORPGSs are suppose to be" Says who ? Who says the way we play today is the only correct way ?

    I personally think MMOs as a whole are on the way out. Some of you people will claim it's the great decline of civilization because people don't want to work in their video games! I ask you, to take a step back, try to remove your ego and pride for a minute and honestly question yourself. Is a video game suppose to be a job, and if you treat a video game like a job, why do you expect others too ? And why are they lazy bums because they don't ? Try to take a open honest look and ask if maybe it's you that has it wrong and not them.

    I know one of the answer is going to be "because X is soooooo easy" Easy for you, doesn't mean easy for them. Easy also doesn't mean fun. I hate leveling, it's probably the most retarded aspect of the game (this is coming from someone with nine 90s). Leveling IS EASY...leveling is NOT fun (not to me, I know others love it). Let me pay $10 to have a instant 90 and I'm all over it.
    if it takes you more than a week to level from 1 to 90 at this point you are doing something horribly wrong.





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  20. #40
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    I wonder why some people need to write so much for such an easy answer to an obvious question.

    : Nothing.

    Why? Because what milions of people want is better than what few thousands people want.

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